BSB abandoning WSBK rulebook
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Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Regardless of fan response, it's what's happening across the board in motorcycle racing. I've been told the Flaminis have been keeping a very close eye on the state of the AMA, probably not so much the attendance figures etc., but the competition levels. That's the aspect the AMA has going for it, so I'm not surprised World Supers are studying up on it. And the Evo change has been in the cards for at least a year now. The introduction of the class last season and the regulation of ECUs in Supersport this season have been positive steps forward. Again, I'd be surprised if the Flaminis aren't paying attention.
The biggest issue with this change will be whether or not they have the support of the factories yet. In my opinion, that's what killed interest in the US. No factories, no money, no rides. No interest. In my discussions with Stuart Higgs, I know that they've been in discussion with the factories throughout this process on how to reel in electronics. It'll be interesting to see if the factories will continue their interest in the series. My guess is yes. They've had a very good year attendance-wise, record numbers at some circuits. I think the factories would be reluctant to turn their back on that fan base. Just my guess.
The biggest issue with this change will be whether or not they have the support of the factories yet. In my opinion, that's what killed interest in the US. No factories, no money, no rides. No interest. In my discussions with Stuart Higgs, I know that they've been in discussion with the factories throughout this process on how to reel in electronics. It'll be interesting to see if the factories will continue their interest in the series. My guess is yes. They've had a very good year attendance-wise, record numbers at some circuits. I think the factories would be reluctant to turn their back on that fan base. Just my guess.
My concern is that no one seems to be hitting the bullseye. It is frustrating to see so many near misses.
For example, car racing is where the FIM need to look. The FIA have been racing production-based machines for decades, and they know every pitfall there is. Unfortunately, moto organizers have looked at car racing, and they have gleaned that performance balancing is a great idea. Stupid. DMG have tried it. WSBK has tried it (1198R). BSB Evo are toying with it. Even the MSMA suggested it with multiple restrictor sizes for 2003 WSBK. IT DOESN'T WORK! The best racing happens between bikes that have very little indexing or none at all.
What they are supposed to be learning from FIA racing is tuning and homologation regs. For instance, FIA car racing series generally have limits on static compression, valve counts, and other sensitive technologies to make sure the race bikes are production relevant AND available for sale to the general public. FIM bike isn't that close, imo. HRC will never sell their WSBK tech, and even in AMA teams still keep their free compression tech under lock and key. Maybe EVO bikes will be sold to the public, but they will still be playing with fire regarding performance indexing.
I'm a bit frustrated b/c the needs of Superbike racing are quite clear, and they have been laid out slowly over time as Superbike racing has experienced growing pains. I don't know who's whining or moaning or whatever (in the AMA it is Blank), but the manufacturers actually laid out a plan over 10 years ago. It originally involved air restrictors which required performance indexing (dumb), but now SBK racing uses rev limits. Just go with the plan from 10 years ago:
1. Performance levels of the competing motorcycles are not to be lowered (compared to the 750s).
2. The level of participation and interest of championship Manufacturers is to be maintained.
3. The interest of official, privateer teams and tuners is to be increased.
4. Running costs are to be contained and equal opportunities of competitiveness are to be ensured for all participants (parts homologation & sale-to-public).
5. The rules to be drafted are to be valid also for national championship.
Besides #1, have any of those objectives been met?
For example, car racing is where the FIM need to look. The FIA have been racing production-based machines for decades, and they know every pitfall there is. Unfortunately, moto organizers have looked at car racing, and they have gleaned that performance balancing is a great idea. Stupid. DMG have tried it. WSBK has tried it (1198R). BSB Evo are toying with it. Even the MSMA suggested it with multiple restrictor sizes for 2003 WSBK. IT DOESN'T WORK! The best racing happens between bikes that have very little indexing or none at all.
What they are supposed to be learning from FIA racing is tuning and homologation regs. For instance, FIA car racing series generally have limits on static compression, valve counts, and other sensitive technologies to make sure the race bikes are production relevant AND available for sale to the general public. FIM bike isn't that close, imo. HRC will never sell their WSBK tech, and even in AMA teams still keep their free compression tech under lock and key. Maybe EVO bikes will be sold to the public, but they will still be playing with fire regarding performance indexing.
I'm a bit frustrated b/c the needs of Superbike racing are quite clear, and they have been laid out slowly over time as Superbike racing has experienced growing pains. I don't know who's whining or moaning or whatever (in the AMA it is Blank), but the manufacturers actually laid out a plan over 10 years ago. It originally involved air restrictors which required performance indexing (dumb), but now SBK racing uses rev limits. Just go with the plan from 10 years ago:
1. Performance levels of the competing motorcycles are not to be lowered (compared to the 750s).
2. The level of participation and interest of championship Manufacturers is to be maintained.
3. The interest of official, privateer teams and tuners is to be increased.
4. Running costs are to be contained and equal opportunities of competitiveness are to be ensured for all participants (parts homologation & sale-to-public).
5. The rules to be drafted are to be valid also for national championship.
Besides #1, have any of those objectives been met?
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
ffs Flammini ,just look at BSB and see how it has grown.BSB is what WSBK should be next year.Swallow that Italian pride,you fool.
There is no real option for BSB - one Honda team is running full WSBK spec, one Yamaha team is close and the others are doing the best that they can. They simply do not have the sponsorship to maintain the current level, although I hope that they are retaining a true racing chassis (allowing the replacement of forks and swingarms, etc). There is plenty of power from today's engine with minimal modification for good racing but give the riders a decent platform.
BSB's management is said by some to make DMG look like a generous lot - for example, while the series has much better attendance than AMA, there is ZERO purse money. Not a pence.
BSB's management is said by some to make DMG look like a generous lot - for example, while the series has much better attendance than AMA, there is ZERO purse money. Not a pence.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
DMG still has some purse money, but it is nowhere near what they promised. After the first year of 20k for the winner of each race and 5k for 2nd through 20th, those figures fell dramatically the next year. I dont see anything wrong with the racing in WSBK that couldnt be fixed by outlawing 1200 cc twins. They either go to far to help Ducati, or Ducati is whining about leaving if they dont get those considerations. It will never happen, but WSBK should force Ducati to build a 1000cc 4, or get the .... out. Here is the rulebook, I4, L 4, V4 take your pick. All other rules stay the same, no concessions. It is just to damned hard to balance the different characteristics of a big block 1200 twin and a 1000cc 4..Way to much time is spent juggling the tech specs to keep everyone happy.
Oh, don't look at me to defend ANYTHING DMG related - I was just pointing out that BSB has no prize money despite having crowds. I think many at DMG should be executed, and they should start with Edmondson whether he is still involved or not.
If I understood the new BSB rules correctly (that is a huge if - I have not seen the rulebook), they are basically outlawing titanium con-rods, requiring stock pistons and a move to a spec ECU - they are not going wild like AMA/DMG, but that may be next. Hopkins's ECU, the one that was used in the recent WSBK race cost $6500. That is quite reasonable compared to the MM units run by the WSBK teams.
If I understood the new BSB rules correctly (that is a huge if - I have not seen the rulebook), they are basically outlawing titanium con-rods, requiring stock pistons and a move to a spec ECU - they are not going wild like AMA/DMG, but that may be next. Hopkins's ECU, the one that was used in the recent WSBK race cost $6500. That is quite reasonable compared to the MM units run by the WSBK teams.
Definitely agree about 1200cc twins. I don't like the performance balancing arrangement in the top class, and balancing only makes sense for Superstock engines like BSB is planning to do. In general, it appears as though the people in BSB are more pragmatic than in other series. They see the problem, and they make sensible changes to reduce cost. Time will tell whether they are adding value or subtracting value with the Evo concept, but experimentation doesn't seem to be terribly controversial in BSB.
The problems with WSBK are much greater than just the 1200cc twin rules, though. Manufacturers have to develop prototype titanium internals, and MotoGP-caliber electronics without using GPS. The manufacturers also have to spend millions on airflow technology to increase volumetric efficiency, and they spend millions on raising the static/dynamic compression ratio (to take full advantage of high octane fuel) which makes the engines even less durable and more secretive, but without creating any appreciable (to the naked eye) gains in horsepower. No one on the SBK commission is particularly happy with the situation; however, they can't reach a consensus on how to cut costs. BMW will obviously never go along with limitations on electronics, and I'm sure the other manufacturers all have their own demands regarding titanium parts, free compression, and cylinder head modifications. The discord has caused IMS to use oversimplified solutions like the single bike rule.
Somebody will get it right eventually. In AMA SBK, the chassis is too dumb, the engine is too smart in some ways and too dumb in others, and the electronics are much too smart. In BSB Evo the chassis is good, the electronics are good, and the engine is ........ which mandates performance balancing. In WSBK, everything is too smart, too expensive, and too restrictive.
It is more complex than you have characterized it, imo. SBK has been free compression for a long time, and BSB are outlawing free compression. The teams will allegedly be allowed to use aftermarket cams which will increase horsepower quite a bit for some of the models, but static compression will be fixed at stock b/c aftermarket pistons and cylinder head modifications will be banned. BSB will then use the rev limit to equalize the bikes b/c such light engine modifications will not allow all manufacturers to be competitive. Electronics will be spec.
AMA SBK have maintained free compression, and while they have banned factory WSBK electronics (not explicitly just by requiring electronics to be sold on the open market), AMA SBK has very loose electronics rules. For reasons unknown to many people, DMG have banned racing-forks (only racing fork internals are allowed) and they have banned racing swingarms except when the manufacturer has demonstrated that the stock bike cannot race properly without the race swingarm (Ducati).
Next year in BSB Evo, everyone should be able to play. Basically everyone can buy cams and install them. Everyone can make some use of the spec electronics, and I think everyone will have access to the factory swingarm. Very open rules, and if the engine regs pan out, lots of gold should be saved.
AMA SBK doesn't work the same way. DMG have made sure that everyone has access to every part, but you have to be an advanced outfit to tune your own engines to free compression regs. You have to have world-class electronics engineers to beat Yoshimura at their own game. Last year Josh Hayes won 7 races, but now that Yosh have gotten their act together with the electronics and the settings, Josh has only been able to win two (he is without any high tech traction control systems).
BSB Evo and AMA DSB are properly wild regulations. AMA SBK is quite conventional.
After all of the bluster about Superstock engines with performance balancing, BSB have essentially adopted WSS rules just like AMA SBK. There are a few key differences:
1. BSB allows cam duration and lift to be modified while AMA SBK is only cam duration now.
2. BSB will allow racing gear sets while AMA requires stock gearing. Both require stock primary gearing and both allow sprockets and such to be replaced.
3. AMA SBK still allows traction control, wheelie control, launch control, etc. BSB has a stock Motec unit with no TC, no anti-wheelie, and no launch control.
4. AMA SBK allows welding materials in the cylinder head while BSB do not.
5. AMA SBK allows aftermarket valves. BSB does not
6. BSB allows con rod replacement parts. AMA allows piston replacement via the parts exception lists.
7. BSB will still allow after market suspension (AMA is inserts only) and BSB will allow factory swingarm assembly (AMA is stock).
8. BSB will still allow carbon fiber and the custom racing fuel tanks (AFAIK). AMA is basically stock tank and no carbon fiber.
http://www.britishsu...egulations.aspx
I'm pleasantly surprised b/c these rules move the nationals closer to a unified rulebook. If they can make the final steps, the FIM will surely adopt it, and hopefully SBK racing will experience a renaissance. I'm still very confused by free compression though. I don't understand why the FIA find it to be such a troublesome waste of money, but motorcycle organizers can't live without it. Maybe someday someone will explain it to me.
1. BSB allows cam duration and lift to be modified while AMA SBK is only cam duration now.
2. BSB will allow racing gear sets while AMA requires stock gearing. Both require stock primary gearing and both allow sprockets and such to be replaced.
3. AMA SBK still allows traction control, wheelie control, launch control, etc. BSB has a stock Motec unit with no TC, no anti-wheelie, and no launch control.
4. AMA SBK allows welding materials in the cylinder head while BSB do not.
5. AMA SBK allows aftermarket valves. BSB does not
6. BSB allows con rod replacement parts. AMA allows piston replacement via the parts exception lists.
7. BSB will still allow after market suspension (AMA is inserts only) and BSB will allow factory swingarm assembly (AMA is stock).
8. BSB will still allow carbon fiber and the custom racing fuel tanks (AFAIK). AMA is basically stock tank and no carbon fiber.
http://www.britishsu...egulations.aspx
I'm pleasantly surprised b/c these rules move the nationals closer to a unified rulebook. If they can make the final steps, the FIM will surely adopt it, and hopefully SBK racing will experience a renaissance. I'm still very confused by free compression though. I don't understand why the FIA find it to be such a troublesome waste of money, but motorcycle organizers can't live without it. Maybe someday someone will explain it to me.
Joined Feb 2007
6K Posts | 58+
Rovrum S,Yorks Eng
PDF'S
http://www.britishsu...ctronics-02.pdf
details of the electronic regulations for the full Superbike class in 2012.
The firmware will provide the same functionality as currently used in the BSB EVO category.
2010-2011 BSB EVO
Allowed
Engine braking (open loop, per gear).
Ignition and fuel mapping with ambient compensation and individual cylinder trims.
Full throttle gear shift cut.
Banned
Traction control.
Launch control.
Throttle blipping on down shifts.
Closed loop fuelling.
Anti-wheelie.
Anti-jerk.
PDF'S
http://www.msvracing...cal_release.pdf
The objectives of the new, MCRCB approved BSB technical rules are to:
1. Create a stable regulations platform of minimum four years validity.
2. Reduce the requirement for and use of certain technologies.
3. Improve the spectacle of the competition.
4. Increase the opportunity for private teams to compete competitively.
5. Limit performance by using the limits of the standard components together with allowing limited modifications to improve reliability and durability and to create parity amongst motorcycle models and types.
Summary of modifications
Retaining the standard piston and valves to control tuning excesses, only the following modifications to be allowed.
1. Camshafts with free profile, increased duration and lift.
2. Valve springs, seats and their retainers (maintaining original materials)
3. Porting of the inlet and exhaust ports with epoxy fillers allowed if necessary.
4. Machining of the cylinder head gasket surface to adjust compression.
5. Re machining of combustion chambers, but no material to be added.
6. Rev limit 750prm above standard, set by spec ECU - standard level determined by street product on official dyno.
7. Aftermarket connecting rods of the same or greater weight than the original. Material to be either as homologated or steel. Centre to centre length to be standard.
8. Crankshaft can be re balanced, but only by the original method.
9. An aftermarket gearbox with a single set of gear ratios nominated for the season. Design concept to be the same as the homologated item.
10. Oil sumps and pumps can be modified to improve reliability. 11.Pistons and valves remain standard. Maintaining the standard piston crown design is a critical part of limiting the tuning possibilities, together with mandated use of a series specified ECU and a rev limit.
http://www.britishsu...ctronics-02.pdf
details of the electronic regulations for the full Superbike class in 2012.
The firmware will provide the same functionality as currently used in the BSB EVO category.
2010-2011 BSB EVO
Allowed
Engine braking (open loop, per gear).
Ignition and fuel mapping with ambient compensation and individual cylinder trims.
Full throttle gear shift cut.
Banned
Traction control.
Launch control.
Throttle blipping on down shifts.
Closed loop fuelling.
Anti-wheelie.
Anti-jerk.
PDF'S
http://www.msvracing...cal_release.pdf
The objectives of the new, MCRCB approved BSB technical rules are to:
1. Create a stable regulations platform of minimum four years validity.
2. Reduce the requirement for and use of certain technologies.
3. Improve the spectacle of the competition.
4. Increase the opportunity for private teams to compete competitively.
5. Limit performance by using the limits of the standard components together with allowing limited modifications to improve reliability and durability and to create parity amongst motorcycle models and types.
Summary of modifications
Retaining the standard piston and valves to control tuning excesses, only the following modifications to be allowed.
1. Camshafts with free profile, increased duration and lift.
2. Valve springs, seats and their retainers (maintaining original materials)
3. Porting of the inlet and exhaust ports with epoxy fillers allowed if necessary.
4. Machining of the cylinder head gasket surface to adjust compression.
5. Re machining of combustion chambers, but no material to be added.
6. Rev limit 750prm above standard, set by spec ECU - standard level determined by street product on official dyno.
7. Aftermarket connecting rods of the same or greater weight than the original. Material to be either as homologated or steel. Centre to centre length to be standard.
8. Crankshaft can be re balanced, but only by the original method.
9. An aftermarket gearbox with a single set of gear ratios nominated for the season. Design concept to be the same as the homologated item.
10. Oil sumps and pumps can be modified to improve reliability. 11.Pistons and valves remain standard. Maintaining the standard piston crown design is a critical part of limiting the tuning possibilities, together with mandated use of a series specified ECU and a rev limit.
