Brno 2016

Jumkie said:

At the behest of Dr. Vudu, Michelin engineer, the warning label shall include (in neon yellow lettering):

1. Try not to brake too hard.
2. Try not to open the throttle too hard.
3. Try not to go too fast.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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Or in other words, be smart like Rossi. Except when he crashed, in the rain, from trying too hard, with too much thrust, from his soft rear.

birdman said:

Tell me this, wouldn't you think a whole bunch of riders would have pitted on the so called drying track if their tires were so soft, the performance dropping so rapidly there was no point continuing to circulate? Just like Germany? But other than Smith, no one pitted. the tires that chunked were performing fine, not dropping, not going back through the field, not slipping and sliding and squirming all over the track. One moment they were fine, the next.

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Great way of posing a question to contrast the difference between normal expenditure of wet tires on a drying track versus tire failure.

I tried explaining to Vuu that Rossi and Lorenzo, both on factory M1s, had the EXACT tire choice with dramatically opposite results. Vuu was unimpressed.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

birdman said:

Or in other words, be smart like Rossi. Except when he crashed, in the rain, from trying too hard, with too much thrust, from his soft rear.

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That was a conspiracy between Lorenzo and Marquez to push Rossi so hard he would crash ................ oh wait on, Lorenzo was having a breakdown at the time and should have been sacked because his performance was so sub par ........


Plus, the crash proved that rather than race for points, VR was racing for a win and we should acknowledge and respect that aspect ...........


Maybe, just maybe there was some fork oil put down by Pedrosa that caused it ..............


Maybe he got scared because Jack was on the charge and when Jack is on the charge who knows who will go down ..........


Maybe , just maybe MV is after the coaching job at some hack of a rider, ...., forgotten his name but he over rides in the wet/dry one minute and underachieves the next ........ what is his name again

birdman said:

They pissed me off last round when Marquez crashed the first thing that .... Harris said, with to me a hint of excitement, was oh boy how is this going to affect the championship! Well I wonder who might that benefit. It took him a few minutes to finally utter oh I hope hes ok. ......s

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I've said it in another thread, i've taken to watching with the sound off 'cos i can't stand that useless .... Harris,he's ....... .... and makes constant mistakes with his commentary,his constant Rossi fawning does my head in,him and that other .... would trip over each other to blow Rossi if he waved his .... in their faces.

Arrabbiata1 said:

My apologies, genuinely, I find your posts unfathomable. My original point was that British motorcycle racing fans have been waiting a considerably long time for a win in the premier class, and coming so long after Sheene's victory at Anderstorp in 1981, this meant a great deal and is something to savour. That's all.

Although I wholly agree about being grateful for what you have and also bemoan the lack of American riders currently on the world stage, you are completely missing the sentiments of the post. Britain has had no GP wins in the top class since Sheene and no World Championships. In that time US riders have yielded 14 championships between them and America was instrumental in ushering the golden age of Grand Prix Motorcycle Racing, so on the contrary, perhaps be grateful for that legacy - what you had - together with the appreciable contribution to the history of the sport as a Nation. As one who stresses the primacy of the sport over rider or national affiliation, I cherish the memories that those riders gave me amongst many others.

I think you meant to say 'draft' although there are indeed as my American friends will testify, plenty of unpleasant 'draughts' in the UK, (particularly when you are perched high in the stands at an exposed place like Silverstone), and an abundance of pleasant ones - if locally brewed trad ale on tap is your thing.

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I must admit to being a bit torn watching that,as an old .... i remember the last time us Brits had something to cheer about and it's been a long time coming,but why did it have to be Cuntslow that insufferable arrogant prick?,he'll act like his .... don't stink now and HRC owe him a contract,i was willing Redding to be the one to do it when he was running in 2nd,oh well......such is life.

moto vudu said:

He didn't notice the section of tire that was missing. His mistake.

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Having definitively proven Ramon Forcada knows nothing about GP race tyres (and presumably Lorenzo himself, Dovi and Gigi et al), or not in comparison with you anyway, I am not sure where you can go next. Perhaps you can move on to Cartesian dualism/disprove the existence of the universe/reality etc.

Pretty well everyone, even those you most oppose, gave Rossi credit for this race, and hardly any even among Lorenzo's most ardent fans including me were making excuses for Lorenzo prior to the revelation about the destruction of his tyre, btw.

Also btw, the outcome of the Brno race weekend was a net increase in MM's championship lead, despite adverse circumstances and tactical error.

Jumkie said:

I tried explaining to Vuu that Rossi and Lorenzo, both on factory M1s, had the EXACT tire choice with dramatically opposite results. Vuu was unimpressed.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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That's right, and in fact Rossi, by coming from 12th to 2nd, must have been pushing his soft front harder than anyone, certainly much more than Dovi, more even than Iannone.

What vudu is saying is like me saying Lorenzo did better than Rossi at Mugelo because he 'managed' his suspect engine better. When of course such an assertion is ridiculous, it was plain luck.

The real problem I have is to say tires chunk that's just how it goes. Engines blow up too, it's part of it sure but they as in this case Yamaha don't just accept it and continue on with suspect engines they fix it. Michelin need to fix it.

birdman said:

The real problem I have is to say tires chunk that's just how it goes. Engines blow up too, it's part of it sure but they as in this case Yamaha don't just accept it and continue on with suspect engines they fix it. Michelin need to fix it.

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Totally agree Birdman but I will give Vudu a little here as he is correct, there is normal standard tyre wear that can occur when a tyre operates outside it's primary design role and purpose.

With normal tyre wear (as you and all but one other realise) causes a degradation of the tyre and the subsequent performance on a gradual basis across the tyre life. Sure, when conditions deteriorate (or track conditions improve as is the case with wets), that tyre wear may accelerate, but it accelerates gradually in a manner that the rider can often adjust to and thus manage (ie. exiting turns more uprioght etc).

What we saw on the weekend with the three cases (Dovi, Ianonne and Lorenzo) was a tyre failure not tyre wear. It was no different to the rear tyre failures from earlier this season, and no different to the failures of PI a few years back, and no different to the few failures that I recall Rossi experiencing (both at Ducati and on the Yamaha).

A failure is sudden, it catches the rider by surprise and generally means tyre chunking or imploding and often may result in a brown strip moment for the rider.

To use MV's insistence and to add to your analogy, were the rear tyre issues of earlier this season with the Ducati tyre failures or standard tyre wear?

There may well be a retort that the tyres were under inflated but it has also been reported that they had been inflated as per recommendation but still failed, oops, sorry wore out as they should.

It is indeed an interesting concern that this season has seen serious rear and front tyre failures under different conditions and one does indeed hope that Michelin and DORNA get the issue fixed before we see tragic circumstances (and I include DORNA as they are likely involved in construction discussions to ensure that the show remains, the show they want/need)

All Vudu really is saying is that since it's Jorge Lorenzo whom he cannot stand, the tire falling apart is more than acceptable.

I'm starting to wonder if he would have been cheering like the boppers who cheer every time one of Rossi's competitors crashes out, if Lorenzo had suffered that fate.

The only way Vudu is going to admit there is a Michelin tire problem is when Rossi is negatively impacted by it.

Observation I have had: of all of the top runners, has anyone noticed Rossi is the only one who has not had tire construction issues? He's picked the wrong compound/strategy certainly, but he's never been impacted by faulty tires. Well unless you include the front end washout at COTA. Meanwhile his teammate who is not an abuser of tires by nature of his riding style has been impacted before him, which is strange given Rossi is heavy on tires when braking.

birdman said:

That's right, and in fact Rossi, by coming from 12th to 2nd, must have been pushing his soft front harder than anyone, certainly much more than Dovi, more even than Iannone.

What vudu is saying is like me saying Lorenzo did better than Rossi at Mugelo because he 'managed' his suspect engine better. When of course such an assertion g out of existence is ridiculous, it was plain luck.

The real problem I have is to say tires chunk that's just how it goes. Engines blow up too, it's part of it sure but they as in this case Yamaha don't just accept it and continue on with suspect engines they fix it. Michelin need to fix it.

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I am just enjoying the power of MV's (self proclaimed) irrefutable logic myself, apart from a fear of imminently winking out of existence when he eventually proves the universe shouldn't really exist.

By his logic, ie that Rossi was the only rider with the skill and talent to get a Michelin soft wet front tyre to last till the end of this race and enable a podium finish even with a hard rear, while Dovi's tyre failed early because he had a soft rear as well and brakes too hard, but Lorenzo who had a hard rear and is easy on the brakes blew out his front because he is just a general hacker with a crew chief who knows nothing about GP race tyres despite all the championships, leads inexorably to the conclusion that MM is vastly the best rider out there since he somehow got his front to last to the end of the race and landed on the podium despite the same tyre choice as Dovi and the attribution of his recent wet race win to how he and the Honda load the front tyre and get heat into it more than others including Valentino.

Jumkie said:

Great way of posing a question to contrast the difference between normal expenditure of wet tires on a drying track versus tire failure.

I tried explaining to Vuu that Rossi and Lorenzo, both on factory M1s, had the EXACT tire choice with dramatically opposite results. Vuu was unimpressed.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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The same happened in Motegi last year Bridgestones.

RCV600RR said:

The same happened in Motegi last year Bridgestones.

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Motegi 2015 is what you would expect to result from Rossi better preserving a wet tyre ie passing Lorenzo late with Lorenzo hanging on at a slower pace, not going from fastest on the track to catastrophe in a single lap; Dani Pedrosa actually won that race on Bridgestone wets btw.

In this race at least 3 riders not all on the same bikes or with the same tyre choice had tyre catastrophes at quite different times.

A few pics of worn tyres

JPSLotus said:

All Vudu really is saying is that since it's Jorge Lorenzo whom he cannot stand, the tire falling apart is more than acceptable.

I'm starting to wonder if he would have been cheering like the boppers who cheer every time one of Rossi's competitors crashes out, if Lorenzo had suffered that fate.

The only way Vudu is going to admit there is a Michelin tire problem is when Rossi is negatively impacted by it.

Observation I have had: of all of the top runners, has anyone noticed Rossi is the only one who has not had tire construction issues? He's picked the wrong compound/strategy certainly, but he's never been impacted by faulty tires. Well unless you include the front end washout at COTA. Meanwhile his teammate who is not an abuser of tires by nature of his riding style has been impacted before him, which is strange given Rossi is heavy on tires when braking.

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Man, I swear reading the last few pages of this thread is absolutely hilarious. Why are you guys so spun up?!!?

But anyway, Rossi did get a bad tire in Argentina! Remember, he dropped over a second a lap when he switched to his 2nd bike that had the exact same setup as #1.

pyeman said:

I must admit to being a bit torn watching that,as an old .... i remember the last time us Brits had something to cheer about and it's been a long time coming,but why did it have to be Cuntslow that insufferable arrogant prick?,he'll act like his .... don't stink now and HRC owe him a contract,i was willing Redding to be the one to do it when he was running in 2nd,oh well......such is life.

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See, i like Crutchlow much more than Redding. I still think Cal is dumber than a hammer and really dont know when to stfu, but he doesnt tend to make excuses. If there is one thing about a man that turns me against him is an inability to say, hey, thats on me .Its one of the reasons i have never warmed to Lorenzo. Redding to me is a ........ artist who makes tons of excuses for his failures while Cal will say, i ...... up.

Those pictures Gaz, show this is not your traditional excessive wear of wet tires on dry(ing) tarmac ala Misano 2015.

That is outright structural failure of the tires.

If Michelin was unsure as to how the soft wet would hold up given the conditions, they should have pushed for a mandatory bike switch.

I have been saying for months that the Michelin tires are inferior ...., and this is not down to simple "teething" woes. Michelin made tires over many years for grand prix motorcycle racing, so they were well aware of the demands that the racing puts on tires. All of the previous year's testing, along with the pre-season testing should have been more than adequate to garner enough feedback to produce a safe racing tire that while not exhibiting the grip of the 2015 Bridgestones, should have been more than capable of handling the job.

Michelin made great efforts to talk about how they could supply Formula 1 with a proper racing tire in spite of not being in the series for a decade and only missed out on that contract this year because of the commercial rights holder. The tires they have been supplying for the WEC, and in particular the 24 Hours of Le Mans are noted for being some of the best tires out there in terms of how they degrade. You can continue pushing to the limit even as the tires are losing performance, without suffering any issues. Drivers alike have praised Michelin for the effort. GP has been an altogether different story. It's been marked by blatant incompetence. People have been quicker to blame the riders than they are Michelin for some unbeknownst reason.

But hey, as long as Valentino has no issues, who gives a .... right guys?

moto vudu said:

Man, I swear reading the last few pages of this thread is absolutely hilarious. Why are you guys so spun up?!!?

But anyway, Rossi did get a bad tire in Argentina! Remember, he dropped over a second a lap when he switched to his 2nd bike that had the exact same setup as #1.

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So why do you get so upset by criticism of Rossi?

michaelm said:

So why do you get so upset by criticism of Rossi?

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There really isn't much criticism of Rossi on this site. There is a lot of hatred for Rossi, but very little criticism.

Arrabbi, what's your take on wet tires coming apart in drying / dry conditions?

Not sure why this tyre delamination is even being debated. If you have ever raced a motorbike, you will know that delamination of a tyre is completely different to wear and it being chewed up.

Delamination is a safety issue and if continues to happen the race should be red flagged otherwise someone will suffer a catastrophic failure and get seriously hurt. It was lucky this didn't happen on Sunday.