Brno 2016

moto vudu said:

That's a slick with catastrophic failure, there is a difference. All I'm saying is it's more likely for catastrophic failure to occur on a wet (especially a soft wet) tire if the track isn't wet enough to prevent it from overheating.

The Michelin hard wet tires did not fail because they were better suited for the conditions today.

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Chunking:



Extreme wearing (overheating):





Again, confusion because its Lorenzo. His quote after the race, explains when he came into the pits the "chunk" of the tire that was missing was not obvious to his crew because that part of the tire was facing down on the tarmac. The rest of the tire appeared perfect, not worn, not suffering stress blistering or dramatic wear or even looking like it needed changing, they actually wanted to send him straight back out on that drying track with the exact same tire. See the pic of the dramatically worn tire? It didn't look like that. Not a too soft tire on a drying track. An example of this would be the pic you posted from Misano.

Then while he was off on the second bike they rotated the tire and the penny dropped, oh thats why he came in. Just like Rossi's failure from indi in 2011, its a tire which is in good shape, not excessively worn, but just happens to have a chunk missing. Its a problem not related to wear. Its a problem for racing because it happens at random. Its a complete lottery. It can happen early in the race (Dovi), late in the race (Iannone), to the leader (same) or someone way behind the leader (Lorenzo), heavy braker (Dovi) light braker (Lorenzo). Its plain old dumb pot luck.

p4p1 said:

Soft means will wear easier giving less grip in drying conditions not will delaminate if used on a slowly drying track.

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I get the feeling some of you have very little experience with tires and do not understand that when they're used outside of their normal operating threshold, bad things can happen. For example, using summer tires in freezing conditions can result in the compound cracking! You going to argue that the tire should NEVER crack no matter what?

The Michelin rain tire should not have delaminated, but when it was used in conditions that didn't allow it to stay within its normal temperature range, there was at least 3 cases of delamination or chunking. You would have a strong case to criticize Michelin had the soft wets chunked during a downpour like we saw at Assen. But wait... THEY DIDN'T!!! Could it be possible that soft wet tires are for soaking wet tracks??? Wow... who would of thought?

povol said:

Tires wearing out is one thing, throwing out entire sections is another. It should never happen when you are making tires for a sport where the participants put their lives on the quality of your product. If that was normal, Michelin would not allow anyone to try and run an entire race with them.

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And I'll add, it seems GP is ok with the tires disintegrating for Ducati and somehow making it the motorcycle's fault. How is this not a scandal? If you're the single tire supplier you got to make safe-grand-prix performance tires for ALL the manufacturers in the championship. I can't imagine a scenario where the tires would be chunking for Yamaha since day one and Rossi not squealing like a pig to high heaven.

Ducati are stupid, and I've said this for years. They should take a page out of Rossi and threaten Dorna to keep their bikes in the garage until suitable tires are provided. Let Dorna scramble to keep their FIM sanctioning, or surely go back and introduce the CRTs to artificially fill a grid. Everything Dorna has done since 2007 is to .... over Ducati...at the expense of Golden Goose.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Agreed. I like Arrab was hard on lorenzo until I saw his tire. Its not like he was running a 'blistering' pace on it.

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What you did there, I see it.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

moto vudu said:

I'm not going to say that Michelin doesn't have more work to do with their wet tires. But when talking about soft wet tires, that is the softest and LEAST durable compound of them all. They're typically chosen if the race is likely to be flag-to-flag or there is a constant downpour. IMO, it's not a surprise that some of the soft wets started to chunk on a drying track.

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Either you really don't understand the difference between: expending the useful life of a tire vs catastrophic tire failure, or you're willfully defending Michelin like a tobacco lawyer.

Either way, I'm enjoying reading you post some entertaining ..... The tires are not supposed to lose chunks this severe. Yes, rain tires are consumed as the track drys, and it's useful is expended because you the performance for the tire is exhausted, hence why they RIDE at pace back to the pits to exchange tires. NOT BECAUSE like Dovi and Lorenzo today, their tires disintegrated to the point having to dangerously limping back to the pits during a hot track. Keep in mind, there are others riding at race pace WITH THE SAME TIRES as these two were while crawling back to the pits. You remind me of Daniboy.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

The commentators were exceptionally horrible this race. When the first camera shot showed Rossi on screen they both in unison (no joke) said look who's coming, it's VALENTINO ROSSI! They both exclaimed simultaneously. I'm sure you guys heard it. It was comical. Then when Rossi passed a rider they'd say "listen to the crowd, all 90K cheering for Rossi" and the crowd could be suddenly heard. That was some impressive iMac standard sound loops mixed in.

Then, when Lorenzo was caught up between 3rd and 4th riders, the commentators keep repeated their disapproval of Lorenzo riding there, except then they realize, wait Lorenzo is faster than those riders and reluctantly changed their tune by saying, 'well, the only way it's ok is if Lorenzo is pulling away, "which he is." I get the impression that Lorenzo is a fly on their enjoyment of RossiTV. It's like the Hunger Games, they're sitting in the booth cueing the crowd, hey there's Lorenzo, bad guy, boooo! Hey, there's Rossi, yeeeeeeaaa!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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I did notice and actually laughed when they both got their rocks off in unison at the sight of Rossi in the back ground. Had it not been a British rider winning the race, it would have been a totally depressing day for them. As far as Lorenzo, where in the hell did they expect him to go, he was way faster .

moto vudu said:

I get the feeling some of you have very little experience with tires and do not understand that when they're used outside of their normal operating threshold, bad things can happen. For example, using summer tires in freezing conditions can result in the compound cracking! You going to argue that the tire should NEVER crack no matter what?

The Michelin rain tire should not have delaminated, but when it was used in conditions that didn't allow it to stay within its normal temperature range, there was at least 3 cases of delamination or chunking. You would have a strong case to criticize Michelin had the soft wets chunked during a downpour like we saw at Assen. But wait... THEY DIDN'T!!! Could it be possible that soft wet tires are for soaking wet tracks??? Wow... who would of thought?

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Well that some of us apparently lacking experience includes Lorenzo's crew chief who attempted to get him to rejoin the race on the same soft rain shod bike, because the tires didn't look badly worn.

moto vudu said:

Yes, it does seem Dovi's tire failed very prematurely, however he also had the soft rear which allowed him to push hard right from the start. He is known as a hard braker, so perhaps he was a little harder on his front compared to Iannone who didn't get severe chunking until later in the race.

Of course, it could also be poor QC by Michelin.

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Hahaha, oh I get it, you're doing those posts again where you say something utterly ridiculous to parody some cute point your trying to make.

Rider's riding style (as Daniboy said earlier to hypothesize why Lorenzo's tires chunked) or riding hard (your ridiculous hypothesis) or braking hard, etc. is NOT a rational, plausible reason for tires to fail! WTF is going on in your head?

You etal: Well of course his tires fell apart, look at him squeezing the brake lever so hard and then cracking the throttle wide open...uhm, WTF?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

povol said:

I did notice and actually laughed when they both got their rocks off in unison at the sight of Rossi in the back ground. Had it not been a British rider winning the race, it would have been a totally depressing day for them. As far as Lorenzo, where in the hell did they expect him to go, he was way faster .

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They pissed me off last round when Marquez crashed the first thing that .... Harris said, with to me a hint of excitement, was oh boy how is this going to affect the championship! Well I wonder who might that benefit. It took him a few minutes to finally utter oh I hope hes ok. ......s

birdman said:

Well that some of us apparently lacking experience includes Lorenzo's crew chief who attempted to get him to rejoin the race on the same soft rain shod bike, because the tires didn't look badly worn.

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He didn't notice the section of tire that was missing. His mistake.

I just finished watching the race. Congrats for Cal and all brit fans.
It was a total nail biter. Earlier today I saw pic of Val on podium accidentally on facebook and thought he won the race. So I was expecting Cal to fall somewhere after he got the lead. When he started wheelie toward the finish, I was almost hyperventilating with anxiety. lol

Also a great day for Avintia. It was nice to see Baz got in 4th and Hecter 5th.

moto vudu said:

How could they have seen this coming? For all Michelin knew, the track would dry quicker forcing a flag-to-flag race. In that scenario, the soft wets would've been perfectly fine. It also could have started raining again! Rain soaking the track would have also made the soft wets a good choice.

I cannot agree with you that under no circumstances should a GP tire come apart. ESPECIALLY when talking about wet tires since they're designed for a very specific condition. It's like putting winter tires on your car during the summer and getting pissed that they melted and chunked.

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Hahaha, this is funny. Michelin couldn't have foreseen a typical circumstance of changing conditions?

Marquez was predicting a flag to flag; meaning he was preparing a STRATEGY you genius. That means he was foreseeing changing conditions. But Michelin couldn't do that because....? Because in grand prix racing changing conditions are unpredictable? Well no .... sherlock! So...they easily calculate, ok well, what's the worse case scenario? Oh I know, some riders will strategize on one condition While others will take a gamble on another set of conditions. Meaning Riders will choose different tire compounds. But according to you Michelin cannot predict this foreseeable occurrence? Haha, you're funny.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

povol said:

You are pretty thick huh.

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Minion-logic.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

moto vudu said:

You're telling me soft-wet tires should never fail on a drying track. If by not buying that makes me thick-headed then yes I am.

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YES, that's exactly what we are telling you, and not just us, but also the reigning world Moto Grand Prix champion.

One thing is losing useful performance for the conditions another thing entirely is tire failure; these two are not the same!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Iamapony said:

Hmm. NOW, you sound bitter. I thought I was pretty light-heartedly accurate. The U.S. has zero chance to score any points in MotoGP, and almost zero chance for a win in WSBK. Meanwhile, there are "Brits" all over the world motorcycle stage. Sorry that you focus on the U.K. draught. Glad this isn't 'footbul', or I would really get a ration, I bet. rofl
.

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Shaking my head, did I miss something? Or are you just on bath salts?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

p4p1 said:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gAAXgAEqqRw

Can you see the difference?

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I gave up, you should too. Vuu clearly doesn't understand the concept.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Iamapony said:

Hmm. NOW, you sound bitter. I thought I was pretty light-heartedly accurate. The U.S. has zero chance to score any points in MotoGP, and almost zero chance for a win in WSBK. Meanwhile, there are "Brits" all over the world motorcycle stage. Sorry that you focus on the U.K. draught. Glad this isn't 'footbul', or I would really get a ration, I bet. rofl
.

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My apologies, genuinely, I find your posts unfathomable. My original point was that British motorcycle racing fans have been waiting a considerably long time for a win in the premier class, and coming so long after Sheene's victory at Anderstorp in 1981, this meant a great deal and is something to savour. That's all.

Although I wholly agree about being grateful for what you have and also bemoan the lack of American riders currently on the world stage, you are completely missing the sentiments of the post. Britain has had no GP wins in the top class since Sheene and no World Championships. In that time US riders have yielded 14 championships between them and America was instrumental in ushering the golden age of Grand Prix Motorcycle Racing, so on the contrary, perhaps be grateful for that legacy - what you had - together with the appreciable contribution to the history of the sport as a Nation. As one who stresses the primacy of the sport over rider or national affiliation, I cherish the memories that those riders gave me amongst many others.

I think you meant to say 'draft' although there are indeed as my American friends will testify, plenty of unpleasant 'draughts' in the UK, (particularly when you are perched high in the stands at an exposed place like Silverstone), and an abundance of pleasant ones - if locally brewed trad ale on tap is your thing.

Jumkie said:

Hahaha, this is funny. Michelin couldn't have foreseen a typical circumstance of changing conditions?

Marquez was predicting a flag to flag; meaning he was preparing a STRATEGY you genius. That means he was foreseeing changing conditions. But Michelin couldn't do that because....? Because in grand prix racing changing conditions are unpredictable? Well no .... sherlock! So...they easily calculate, ok well, what's the worse case scenario? Oh I know, some riders will strategize on one condition While others will take a gamble on another set of conditions. Meaning Riders will choose different tire compounds. But according to you Michelin cannot predict this foreseeable occurrence? Haha, you're funny.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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No apparently Michelin never foresaw the soft rain tire could possibly be required to be used on a drying track. It's not what the tires were designed for, even though simply logic says it's a 50:50 proposition the track will either get drier or wetter!

Still to overcome this problem Michelin has consulted with tire expert vudu and come up with the solution. From now on soft wets will come with a label, "WARNING, this product may self destruct, use only when wet"

birdman said:

No apparently Michelin never foresaw the soft rain tire could possibly be required to be used on a drying track. It's not what the tires were designed for, even though simply logic says it's a 50:50 proposition the track will either get drier or wetter!

Still to overcome this problem Michelin has consulted with tire expert vudu and come up with the solution. From now on soft wets will come with a label, "WARNING, this product may self destruct, use only when wet"

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At the behest of Dr. Vudu, Michelin engineer, the warning label shall include (in neon yellow lettering):

1. Try not to brake too hard.
2. Try not to open the throttle too hard.
3. Try not to go too fast.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

moto vudu said:

He didn't notice the section of tire that was missing. His mistake.

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Diaz may have a solid chin but he's got nothin on you. Try as we might we can't knock you out. Just kidding I dig a fan with backbone.

He has experience, seen millions of tires, yet didn't think a tire which looks like Lorenzos would be so badly damaged.

Tell me this, wouldn't you think a whole bunch of riders would have pitted on the so called drying track if their tires were so soft, the performance dropping so rapidly there was no point continuing to circulate? Just like Germany? But other than Smith, no one pitted. the tires that chunked were performing fine, not dropping, not going back through the field, not slipping and sliding and squirming all over the track. One moment they were fine, the next.