Brno 2016

yamfan · Aug 21, 2016

michaelm said:
If you want to argue that Rossi is the master of preserving tyres and riding worn tyres, and definitely better than Lorenzo in this regard and cite this race as further evidence, you have every right to do so and and I for one will agree you are completely correct.

To argue that Dovi is responsible for his tyre virtually delaminating quite early in the race, or Lorenzo's tyre suddenly deteriorating over the course of 1 lap which was fairly akin to same, are entirely rider related is less defensible imo. We know Michelin produced a dry tyre which was not up to standard, why can't the same be true of a wet tyre?

I am obviously liable to the same criticism, but I have mainly taken you on recently because I have become annoyed by you exhibiting exactly the same behaviour you call hypocritical in others including me ie you pursue your own fixed agenda regardless of facts, what actually occurs and counter arguments in exactly the same way you accuse others of doing.

The fact that some riders soft tyres lasted and some didn't gives very strong indication that quality control at Michelin isn't what it should be yet. Especially when the likes of Lorenzo who is a very light braker, loses the centre tread of his tyre. If it was the edges of the tyre he'd damaged then I could be convinced his style was a factor in its demise.
If anyone at all deserves praise heaped upon him for tyre management it's Marquez ahead of Rossi, he made both softs last, a serious feat given the Honda is hard on front tyres in particular.

michaelm · Aug 21, 2016

moto vudu said:
Rossi probably deserves some credit for preserving his front, but the fact that he was so slow for the first 5 laps helped him. Lorenzo was even slower at the start, but once he got some heat in his tires and there was less water on the track he started pushing very hard. Lorenzo was probably pushing his tires harder in the later stages of the race than Rossi was.

I told you before, that I wasn't going to say Michelin doesn't have more work to do on the wet tires. But, you'll never hear me say I'm surprised a wet tire failed on a drying or dry track.

They didn't just lose chunks they effectively delaminated, which the Bridgestones never did, or at least not before instructions to produce tyres which wore out a la F1 to "improve the racing".

p4p1 · Aug 21, 2016

Vudu while sometimes comes up with some valid points has lost all sense. Rossi deserves no credit for not having his tyre delaminated. Michilin deserve massive amounts of critisicm for it happening to 3 riders that we know of.

Related but I also believe that Ianonne deserves some critisicm riding on a tyre like that, that he could surely feel sur ther illustrates the point that he doesn't care about anyone including his owns safety.

michaelm · Aug 21, 2016

JPSLotus said:
F1 is a very bad example. Their wet weather tires are intermediate and then full wets. There is no soft wet or hard wet.

Even at that, they have been running subpar tires for years now. Their wet weather tires are even more atrocious with both the intermediate and full wets being utter ..... Their dry weather tires are just as bad. Purposely designed to disintegrate should any driver push the tire too hard...and backing off it doesn't get the tire back....you push too hard, your tired is permanently ruined.

This is the crux of the whole tyre thing.

Conspiracies against individual riders or not, Dorna don't actually understand the sport they effectively own, and frequently make ill considered decisions, often with a default position of slavishly following the lead of F1, apparently never having noticed such things as the differing number of wheels, and difference in the duration of races, involved in the 2 sports.

They have very definitely manipulated the tyres with varying motives, and I recall them actually requesting Bridgestone to make tyres which wore out more a few years back. It is my belief that Bridgestone got jack of being asked to make subpar tyres, and getting the blame for consequent occurrences like the 2013 PI debacle, although knowing their tyres were less durable I guess they still should have tested at that track after it had been re-surfaced.

Jumkie · Aug 21, 2016

povol said:
Proof of Lorenzo chunked tire. Michelin should be embarassed

Ha!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Jumkie · Aug 21, 2016

markbdaniels said:
Apparently Lorenzo came in the first time because the front tire was falling apart. I don't think it was part of the plan.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Wait, what the ....? Povol, that wasn't a joke?

Edit: holy ....! This is ridiculous. Micheltino tires are Sepanging.

http://m.crash.net/motogp/news/232969/1/lorenzo-the-front-tyre-tore-up.html

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

michaelm · Aug 21, 2016

p4p1 said:
Vudu while sometimes comes up with some valid points has lost all sense. Rossi deserves no credit for not having his tyre delaminated. Michilin deserve massive amounts of critisicm for it happening to 3 riders that we know of.

Related but I also believe that Ianonne deserves some critisicm riding on a tyre like that, that he could surely feel sur ther illustrates the point that he doesn't care about anyone including his owns safety.

Certainly the expert commentariat didn't seem to consider Dovi's or Lorenzo's tyre problems to be par for the course/conditions, everyone like me finding Lorenzo coming in to be explicable only by a brain fade/gross error of judgement as I also assumed at the time; Ramon Forcada also seemed to find it inexplicable for that matter.

birdman · Aug 21, 2016

moto vudu said:
The track was dry enough that it wasn't ideal for soft wet tires for full race distance.

Chunks flying off the side or middle... it's all tire failure to me. When the temperature of the rubber compound exceeds the limit, all bets are off for where the first chunks come from. Iannone's tire appeared almost completely shredded.

Oh really. More like it its ok because it was Lorenzo.

Now what about...............

Now tell me again, perfectly normal tire wear, not tire failure.

Wet tire, dry tire, soft or hard makes no difference, chunking is catastrophic failure, not wear.

moto vudu · Aug 21, 2016

Bip... Boop... Bop... BING!

moto vudu · Aug 21, 2016

birdman said:
Oh really. More like it its ok because it was Lorenzo.

Now what about...............

View attachment 12220

Now tell me again, perfectly normal tire wear, not tire failure.

Wet tire, dry tire, soft or hard makes no difference, chunking is catastrophic failure, not wear.

That's a slick with catastrophic failure, there is a difference. All I'm saying is it's more likely for catastrophic failure to occur on a wet (especially a soft wet) tire if the track isn't wet enough to prevent it from overheating.

The Michelin hard wet tires did not fail because they were better suited for the conditions today.

p4p1 · Aug 21, 2016

It's a simple concept you clearly can't grasp. Chunking is not the same as burning rubber off. Not only that it was in the middle of the tyre FFS between two grooves it's clearly a tyre failure due in no part to riders fault.

Gaz · Aug 21, 2016

Clearly Rossi has no idea how to ride a bike, I mean, this cannot be a manufacturer fault.

Nope, it is a manufacturing fault as this is NOT normal tyre wear

moto vudu · Aug 21, 2016

p4p1 said:
It's a simple concept you clearly can't grasp. Chunking is not the same as burning rubber off. Not only that it was in the middle of the tyre FFS between two grooves it's clearly a tyre failure due in no part to riders fault.

What you can't seem to grasp is that when a tire severely overheats, it may not simply burn rubber off. The tire can experience catastrophic failure and start chunking. It has happened often enough in car & motorcycle racing I don't see it as abnormal. Wet tires are easily overheated if there isn't enough water to keep them cool.

p4p1 · Aug 21, 2016

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gAAXgAEqqRw

Can you see the difference?

moto vudu · Aug 21, 2016

p4p1 said:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gAAXgAEqqRw

Can you see the difference?

Yeah, I see you attempting to compare Moto2 Dunlops to GP Michelin SOFT wet tires. Like I said earlier in the thread, Rossi & Lorenzo shredded the .... out of the HARD wet Bridgestones last year at Misano! You don't think if they were out on SOFT wet Bridgestones lapping on a dry track it would've been more likely for a catastrophic tire failure to occur?

Jumkie · Aug 21, 2016

michaelm said:
I watch with the live timing on the computer, the only way to tell what is going on with Nick Harris et al commentating. The times come through a little in advance of the "live" TV down here, hence my impression of the commentators being perhaps unfairly worse than they are, which is still doubtless not good by any measure.

The commentators were exceptionally horrible this race. When the first camera shot showed Rossi on screen they both in unison (no joke) said look who's coming, it's VALENTINO ROSSI! They both exclaimed simultaneously. I'm sure you guys heard it. It was comical. Then when Rossi passed a rider they'd say "listen to the crowd, all 90K cheering for Rossi" and the crowd could be suddenly heard. That was some impressive iMac standard sound loops mixed in.

Then, when Lorenzo was caught up between 3rd and 4th riders, the commentators keep repeated their disapproval of Lorenzo riding there, except then they realize, wait Lorenzo is faster than those riders and reluctantly changed their tune by saying, 'well, the only way it's ok is if Lorenzo is pulling away, "which he is." I get the impression that Lorenzo is a fly on their enjoyment of RossiTV. It's like the Hunger Games, they're sitting in the booth cueing the crowd, hey there's Lorenzo, bad guy, boooo! Hey, there's Rossi, yeeeeeeaaa!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

p4p1 · Aug 21, 2016

moto vudu said:
Yeah, I see you attempting to compare Moto2 Dunlops to GP Michelin SOFT wet tires. Like I said earlier in the thread, Rossi & Lorenzo shredded the .... out of the HARD wet Bridgestones last year at Misano! You don't think if they were out on SOFT wet Bridgestones lapping on a dry track it would've been more likely for a catastrophic tire failure to occur?

Soft means will wear easier giving less grip in drying conditions not will delaminate if used on a slowly drying track.

Jumkie · Aug 21, 2016

moto vudu said:
IMO, Michelin doesn't need to feel embarrassed. The soft wet tire (from any manufacturer) really isn't made to last full race distance on a drying track. Yes, some riders managed to get theirs to last the full race, but I think a lot of teams chose to run the soft because they were expecting a flag-to-flag race.

Soft tires are usually bad for durability. The hard tires performed just fine when they got up to temp.

I get the feeling had Rossi's tires chunked and Lorenzo finished 2nd we'd have a petition to waterboard the Michelin executives. Surely by this hour it'd have 800K signatures.

Let me explain something to you. Rossi and Lorenzo, both factory Yamaha riders, chose the EXACT tire choice. One guy comfortably finished on the podium the other guy's tires went Chernobyl. Uhm...yeah, Michelin don't need to feel embarrassed....because the right guy's tires lasted the whole race.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

p4p1 · Aug 21, 2016

Jumkie said:
The commentators were exceptionally horrible this race. When the first camera shot showed Rossi on screen they both in unison (no joke) said look who's coming, it's VALENTINO ROSSI! They both exclaimed simultaneously. I'm sure you guys heard it. It was comical. Then when Rossi passed a rider they'd say "listen to the crowd, all 90K cheering for Rossi" and the crowd could be suddenly heard. That was some impressive iMac standard sound loops mixed in.

Then, when Lorenzo was caught up between 3rd and 4th riders, the commentators keep repeated their disapproval of Lorenzo riding there, except then they realize, wait Lorenzo is faster than those riders and reluctantly changed their tune by saying, 'well, the only way it's ok is if Lorenzo is pulling away, "which he is." I get the impression that Lorenzo is a fly on their enjoyment of RossiTV. It's like the Hunger Games, they're sitting in the booth cueing the crowd, hey there's Lorenzo, bad guy, boooo! Hey, there's Rossi, yeeeeeeaaa!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

I was unsure of what Lorenzo was supposed to do in that situation, he was clearly faster than the guys that he was lapped by and at first I thought wtf is he doing and wondered if it was arrogance on his part but then once he showed he clearly had more pace I though he did the right thing he got himself to a gal where he couldn't effect anyone at all and ride at his own pace.

povol · Aug 21, 2016

moto vudu said:
Yeah, I see you attempting to compare Moto2 Dunlops to GP Michelin SOFT wet tires. Like I said earlier in the thread, Rossi & Lorenzo shredded the .... out of the HARD wet Bridgestones last year at Misano! You don't think if they were out on SOFT wet Bridgestones lapping on a dry track it would've been more likely for a catastrophic tire failure to occur?

Go back and look at the picture of Lorenzo's tire, it's in very good shape except for missing center section.Nowhere near the stage of shredded that Dovi's front at Sachenring before he pitted. That s the expected wear to have from a soft wer tire on a drying track. Those tires degraded in acceptable fashion, these fell apart

Brno 2016

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