BMW: Honda and Yamaha are 'killing' MotoGP

cliché guevara said:

you do realize that the major spending and involvement in the series was not for the sake of the sport but rather for selifish reasons.

no doubt if one pulled out,the others would follow,thats what i argue too.



the thing that some of you overlook,or as is the case with some ignore, is that this way of participating prevents others from joining and potentially ruins the sport

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Yea, its called winning, something that is lost on todays youth...... this " its not weather you win or lose, its how you play the game" ......... I like the Japs attitude about competing. Win at all cost. As Vince Lombardi said, winnig is not the only thing, its everything!!!!!

povol said:

Yea, its called winning, something that is lost on todays youth...... this " its not weather you win or lose, its how you play the game" ......... I like the Japs attitude about competing. Win at all cost. As Vince Lombardi said, winnig is not the only thing, its everything!!!!!

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ok i concede



everything in life is about ruthless darwinism. if you don't share this view you're a communist,.....-liberal or even worse, a sensible person.





believe it or not ,there are people out there that share the view that restraining from short term gain can be better in the long term.

look at f1.

cliché guevara said:

you do realize that the major spending and involvement in the series was not for the sake of the sport but rather for selifish reasons.

no doubt if one pulled out,the others would follow,thats what i argue too.



the thing that some of you overlook,or as is the case with some ignore, is that this way of participating prevents others from joining and potentially ruins the sport

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Really, they are in it for selfish reasons? What an eye-opener. Thank god BMW shows some true concern for the greater good then.



Sarcasm aside, everybody is in this game for selfish reasons. Everybody.



Gobmeier's comments are opportunistic. The sport is in a state of flux right now and BMW is trying to force entrance on their terms. They are basically saying: we want to compete but you have to level the playing field for us. I don't agree with such sentiments. There is nothing that prevents factories like BMW to enter the series and be competitive. It does take determination, perseverance, skill, and bucketloads of money though. It seems to me BMW want to enter and win straight away without investing too much. Right now, it doesn't work that way. My opinion is that it should not work that way. Ducati have shown that, if you commit to this sport for the long term, are willing to invest, and be creative, you can be competitive. We may easily forget it now, but Ducati developed a bike in 2001/2002, entered in 2003 and scored a first win, had a shot at the title 2006 and won the title in 2007. It can be done, but you have to go all in.



I suppose when you talk about how Honda and Yamaha are preventing others from entering, you're thinking fuel limits and electronics. Guess how Ducati did in that department compared to Honda and Yamaha before they dropped the ball.



I would argue that what is preventing other manufactures nowadays from repeating that feat is a) the heavy engine regulations and the control tire. Rules that have been accepted, but hardly initiated by Honda and Yamaha.



Face it, at the moment, BMW can't even be arsed to give some decent support to the CRT effort running their engine. Which is in the spirit of the CRT rules, I suppose but I hardly think ethics are the motivation.



It is my opinion that what will potentially ruin the sport, is turning it into an enterainment spectacle. But hey, what do I know, I just overlook, or choose to ignore the obvious truth.

stiefel said:

Really, they are in it for selfish reasons? What an eye-opener. Thank god BMW shows some true concern for the greater good then.



Sarcasm aside, everybody is in this game for selfish reasons. Everybody.



Gobmeier's comments are opportunistic. The sport is in a state of flux right now and BMW is trying to force entrance on their terms. They are basically saying: we want to compete but you have to level the playing field for us. I don't agree with such sentiments. There is nothing that prevents factories like BMW to enter the series and be competitive. It does take determination, perseverance, skill, and bucketloads of money though. It seems to me BMW want to enter and win straight away without investing too much. Right now, it doesn't work that way. My opinion is that it should not work that way. Ducati have shown that, if you commit to this sport for the long term, are willing to invest, and be creative, you can be competitive. We may easily forget it now, but Ducati developed a bike in 2001/2002, entered in 2003 and scored a first win, had a shot at the title 2006 and won the title in 2007. It can be done, but you have to go all in.



I suppose when you talk about how Honda and Yamaha are preventing others from entering, you're thinking fuel limits and electronics. Guess how Ducati did in that department compared to Honda and Yamaha before they dropped the ball.



I would argue that what is preventing other manufactures nowadays from repeating that feat is a) the heavy engine regulations and

the control tire. Rules that have been accepted, but hardly initiated by Honda and Yamaha.



Face it, at the moment, BMW can't even be arsed to give some decent support to the CRT effort running their engine. Which is in the spirit of the CRT rules, I suppose but I hardly think ethics are the motivation.



It is my opinion that what will potentially ruin the sport, is turning it into an enterainment spectacle. But hey, what do I know, I just overlook, or choose to ignore the obvious truth.

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Afuckingmen.



Like i said before, Kawasaki BMW and Suzuki have the money to compete in Moto Gp, they simply choose not to because they are behind the 8 ball learning curve of competitors who have been there year in, year out. Now they want those companies to relinquish the advantages they have EARNED by being there year in , year out. .... em

povol said:

And performance!. Euro cars and bikes are way overhyped I would purchase a Lexus over BMW or Mercedes, or a Honda Yamaha etc: over a Ducati, Aprilia, KTM etc:.

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Yep. When I was searching around for supermoto I had a chance to buy a used KTM at a really good price but I read and confirmed that wen ridden hard the way they're supposed be, they need an engine re-build around every 1200 miles! I bought a DRZ400sm and never looked back.

stiefel said:

Really, they are in it for selfish reasons? What an eye-opener. Thank god BMW shows some true concern for the greater good then.



Sarcasm aside, everybody is in this game for selfish reasons. Everybody.



Gobmeier's comments are opportunistic. The sport is in a state of flux right now and BMW is trying to force entrance on their terms. They are basically saying: we want to compete but you have to level the playing field for us. I don't agree with such sentiments. There is nothing that prevents factories like BMW to enter the series and be competitive. It does take determination, perseverance, skill, and bucketloads of money though. It seems to me BMW want to enter and win straight away without investing too much. Right now, it doesn't work that way. My opinion is that it should not work that way. Ducati have shown that, if you commit to this sport for the long term, are willing to invest, and be creative, you can be competitive. We may easily forget it now, but Ducati developed a bike in 2001/2002, entered in 2003 and scored a first win, had a shot at the title 2006 and won the title in 2007. It can be done, but you have to go all in.



I suppose when you talk about how Honda and Yamaha are preventing others from entering, you're thinking fuel limits and electronics. Guess how Ducati did in that department compared to Honda and Yamaha before they dropped the ball.



I would argue that what is preventing other manufactures nowadays from repeating that feat is a) the heavy engine regulations and

the control tire. Rules that have been accepted, but hardly initiated by Honda and Yamaha.



Face it, at the moment, BMW can't even be arsed to give some decent support to the CRT effort running their engine. Which is in the spirit of the CRT rules, I suppose but I hardly think ethics are the motivation.



It is my opinion that what will potentially ruin the sport, is turning it into an enterainment spectacle. But hey, what do I know, I just overlook, or choose to ignore the obvious truth.

Click to expand...

Hard to know how quickly the aprilia and bmw wsbk technology would transfer up to motogp; I guess technology developed in motogp has filtered to them although they haven't been there, certainly from the component/accessory systems manufacturers.



I think as you have said some of the specific if not necessarily desirable (for racing) motogp technology such as the 5 or 6 years of fuel economy development under recent formulae, more recently the engine durability stuff, perhaps to a lesser extent the more advanced aspects of the electronics and adapting to the tyre technology might require the investment of significant time and resources, and arguably some of that has been put in place to suit honda's and yamaha's ends rather than in the pure spirit of ultimate competition, particularly given the degree of control they have had over the tech regs. I don't believe the control tyre was at their instigation though.

Keshav said:

Yep. When I was searching around for supermoto I had a chance to buy a used KTM at a really good price but I read and confirmed that wen ridden hard the way they're supposed be, they need an engine re-build around every 1200 miles! I bought a DRZ400sm and never looked back.

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Yep. a buddy of mine found that out the hard way. Found a cherry KTM 670, wrung its neck up at Deals Gap for about a month and bingo, rebuild. He fixed it and sold it. His brother has a DRZ 400 that requires changing oil and riding it. The KTM was a weapon on the tight curvy roads, but the reliability sucked. It also seems that just about everyone of the guys i ride with that have bought a Ducati, experince some sort of electrical gremlin. I dont need status symbols, i need .... that works.

povol said:

Yep. a buddy of mine found that out the hard way. Found a cherry KTM 670, wrung its neck up at Deals Gap for about a month and bingo, rebuild. He fixed it and sold it. His brother has a DRZ 400 that requires changing oil and riding it. The KTM was a weapon on the tight curvy roads, but the reliability sucked. It also seems that just about everyone of the guys i ride with that have bought a Ducati, experince some sort of electrical gremlin. I dont need status symbols, i need .... that works.

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Thats not those integrated coil spark plug caps is it? Great idea in theory, crap in practice. One good dose of rain and the front cylinder plug well fills with water ( yes they are supposed to be waterproof ...... in theory ) after a few weeks the water enters the internals of the coil/cap and its useless. There are aftermarket cap coil combinations available, the coil goes up under the tank away from water, may actually fix the problem. The other way to fix the problem is ( as many Ducati owners adhere to ) never take it out in the rain



On the KTM's I must admit I was not a fan, but then back in about 1998 they went Kokusan ignition and Mikuni Carbs. So I gave them a go, and I still have a pretty old 520. Gotta admit though I don't ride that much these days and not as hard as I once did. Still it takes a bit of work to any Jap bike to get it up to spec. on the suspension. The WP's on the Ktm's aren't actually too bad these days.



I do really like the 570 Husaberg though, it really is a magic bike. I don't think anything, off the shelf, compares to the 570. It feels like a 125 to throw around in the bush but has torque like a tractor. And on a dirt road, fast, not much compares to it also.

michaelm said:

I think as you have said some of the specific if not necessarily desirable (for racing) motogp technology such as the 5 or 6 years of fuel economy development under recent formulae, more recently the engine durability stuff, perhaps to a lesser extent the more advanced aspects of the electronics and adapting to the tyre technology might require the investment of significant time and resources, and arguably some of that has been put in place to suit honda's and yamaha's ends rather than in the pure spirit of ultimate competition, particularly given the degree of control they have had over the tech regs. I don't believe the control tyre was at their instigation though.

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The point I was trying to make that it is rather facile to portray Honda and Yamaha as the big, bad boogiemen of the sport that keep everybody else from playing. These are companies that invested a lot into the sport, for a very long time. For selfish reasons, well yes, but there is nothing wrong with that.



There are some barriers to entry at the moment. The 81 mm bore restricition, the engine limit, and the control tire. And, perhaps most importantly, it is my believe if there's one thing that's been pushing out manufacturers and keeping new ones from entering more than anything, it is the constant rule changes themselves. One may ask who it was that initiated much of this.



Honda and Yamaha are very clear about wanting to develope fuel efficiency and electronics in motogp. Understandably so, it is how they sell their racing endeavors to their boards. But Ducati managed to beat them in the fuel efficiency department, and Ducati managed to use electronic development to get their bike competitive. In fact, I remember both Preziosi and Stoner at one point reporting that all of the development Ducati was doing, was electronics updates, because it was a cheap way to develope.