BMW: Honda and Yamaha are 'killing' MotoGP

povol · Jun 27, 2012

J4rn0 said:
The difference between Yamaha and Honda and Kawasaki and Suzuki, in the MotoGP era, is that the first two have won all the titles (but one), the other two nothing, and consequently withdrew. In order to have winners, losers are required; but if most give up, it's bad. When you have only two contenders, and it is becoming more and more difficult for others to enter that competition because of tire monopoly and silly rules like the 21 liters and 6 engines, that are making it really difficult and horribly expensive to design a MotoGP bike around those blessed Bridgestones, it's not good. Simple.

You are not answering the question. What is it that Honda and Yamaha have, that Suzuki and Kawasaki dont have. Its not money, they all have the money. Why do 2 Japanese companies choose to compete, and the other 2 quit. This is getting difficult for people to explain now that Yamaha has been added to the list of things killing GP. Ive got news for you, Honda and Yamaha are the only things holding Gp together.

michaelm · Jun 27, 2012

Keshav said:
On the whole Re: Yakuza we're mostly on the same page. I did recently read a rather scholarly book on the Yakuza which while terrifically informative was also really dry. But having had a long-standing fascination with them I managed to slog through it. When I say operate out in the open - I mean to the extent that unlike the American mob - the Yakuza don't meet in the back of grimey pork stores in North Jersey or 50 square-foot social clubs on Mott Street. The Yakuza are known to congregate and live in warehouse sized buildings with the name of their "association" painted in 6 ft high letters on the front of the building. And unlike in the States - Japanese cops are in fact terrified of Yakuza because their influence is strong very high up in the police, judicial and upper levels of government.

I could see Honda letting Yamaha win one or two. Honda has good PR people advising them same as any other big corp.

To extend (or beat to death) our metaphor, perhaps that is why mick doohan, as close to a samurai as you are likely to get in a motogp rider imo, is so beloved by honda (not saying he was better than valentino at honda, just more samurai-like).

I think whatever else applies honda and yamaha still do have bean counters, and honda may have had trouble with them if they had won no 800 championship despite the resources applied to the task, and perhaps yamaha may not have been too upset about losing one championship if it allows their competition to continue.

michaelm · Jun 27, 2012

povol said:
You are not answering the question. What is it that Honda and Yamaha have, that Suzuki and Kawasaki dont have. Its not money, they all have the money. Why do 2 Japanese companies choose to compete, and the other 2 quit. This is getting difficult for people to explain now that Yamaha has been added to the list of things killing GP. Ive got news for you, Honda and Yamaha are the only things holding Gp together.

I agree with most of your philosophy on the sport, but even nakomoto has admiitted they are spending too much money, and I think there may be an element of them needing to be saved from themselves, not by a low tech CRT only series though if they want me to watch it.

digger · Jun 27, 2012

povol said:
You are not answering the question. What is it that Honda and Yamaha have, that Suzuki and Kawasaki dont have. Its not money, they all have the money. Why do 2 Japanese companies choose to compete, and the other 2 quit. This is getting difficult for people to explain now that Yamaha has been added to the list of things killing GP. Ive got news for you, Honda and Yamaha are the only things holding Gp together.

Mate, you sound like you have at least half a brain, so why do you so stoutly argue this? Until you (or i) sit in on a board meeting with any of the racing teams and their respective accounting departments, you can't possibly pass judgment on their budgets. It is distinctly possible that NONE of the teams in motogp are coming even close to making a profit, so if you were in charge, why go racing?

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2012

michaelm said:
I agree with most of your philosophy on the sport, but even nakomoto has admiitted they are spending too much money, and I think there may be an element of them needing to be saved from themselves, not by a low tech CRT only series though if they want me to watch it.

? "if they want me to watch it. ?

Ur not gonna conduct a Pov-style boycott are u buddy?

truent · Jun 27, 2012

good stuff all around.. i understand pov's view re: that its not right to have to dumb down honda/yamaha so others can compete.. but in an effort to attract more fans or adjust the business model for the better, what else can you do.. remember the years of the tire wars between bridgestone and michelin were pretty cool.. some tracks/conditions were suited to one and not the other etc.. we all complained at the time because our guy didnt win or whatever and just wanted there to be a level field, but in retrospect at least it mixed it up a little lol

mylexicon · Jun 27, 2012

povol said:
You are not answering the question. What is it that Honda and Yamaha have, that Suzuki and Kawasaki dont have. Its not money, they all have the money. Why do 2 Japanese companies choose to compete, and the other 2 quit. This is getting difficult for people to explain now that Yamaha has been added to the list of things killing GP. Ive got news for you, Honda and Yamaha are the only things holding Gp together.

Fine. Let's go back to 26L 990cc. Honda and Yamaha can be on Michelins. Kawasaki, Suzuki, and Ducati can roll on Bridgestones.

Honda and Yamaha are lost at sea b/c they wanted to build flickable, mass-centralized bikes. They thought 800cc-21L was the ticket, but their spring-valved pocketbikes were embarrassed by Stoner and Ducati. The entire world told Honda they were making a major miscalculation, but they didn't listen.

Now we are in the throes of a global economic recession (for the nations that fund GP). The manufacturers cannot reduce fuel capacity to reduce 800cc revs because they have seen the folly of fuel capacity reduction so the MSMA agreed to increase displacement. The result is a badly butchered formula that no one really wants. Honda and Yamaha are merely trying to stall until the global economy recovers or until the FIM-Dorna contract expires and Bridgepoint are sent packing.

The racing is okay, but everything else is complete rot. You don't seem to care b/c you have Stockholm Syndrome. The explanation is quite straightforward.

michaelm · Jun 27, 2012

Jumkie said:
? "if they want me to watch it. ?

Ur not gonna conduct a Pov-style boycott are u buddy?

Not at all. I am aware it is a matter of complete indifference to dorna, bridgepoint et al whether one particular bloke in Australia watches their show. My point was that it will not hold my interest if they take the CRT concept to extremes, extremes which as far as I am aware they are not currently contemplating.

I don't watch moto2 much now but was formerly quite interested in 250 gp racing. I still like the WSS races though so I can't claim any mortgage on logic, although I could probably come up with an argument for why this is the case (it might involve some sophistry). I also have no interest at all in the pseudo-nascar tin top racing now current in Australia which seems to appeal to a reasonable audience, even though I was a fanatical fan of the non-equalised racing of this variety in my youth to the extent of going to the tracks to watch it live whenever possible from my early teens.

Talpa · Jun 28, 2012

mylexicon said:
Fine. Let's go back to 26L 990cc. Honda and Yamaha can be on Michelins. Kawasaki, Suzuki, and Ducati can roll on Bridgestones.

Honda and Yamaha are lost at sea b/c they wanted to build flickable, mass-centralized bikes. They thought 800cc-21L was the ticket, but their spring-valved pocketbikes were embarrassed by Stoner and Ducati. The entire world told Honda they were making a major miscalculation, but they didn't listen.

Now we are in the throes of a global economic recession (for the nations that fund GP). The manufacturers cannot reduce fuel capacity to reduce 800cc revs because they have seen the folly of fuel capacity reduction so the MSMA agreed to increase displacement. The result is a badly butchered formula that no one really wants. Honda and Yamaha are merely trying to stall until the global economy recovers or until the FIM-Dorna contract expires and Bridgepoint are sent packing.

The racing is okay, but everything else is complete rot. You don't seem to care b/c you have Stockholm Syndrome. The explanation is quite straightforward.

Exactly......then BMW and Aprilia would seriously re-consider their position.

Keshav · Jun 28, 2012

povol said:
You are not answering the question. What is it that Honda and Yamaha have, that Suzuki and Kawasaki dont have. Its not money, they all have the money. Why do 2 Japanese companies choose to compete, and the other 2 quit. This is getting difficult for people to explain now that Yamaha has been added to the list of things killing GP. Ive got news for you, Honda and Yamaha are the only things holding Gp together.

Giant executive egos that overwhelm their sense of corporate responsibility which feeds their willingness to engage in a decades long spending war?

The answer may be as simple as Kawasaki and Suzuki are more fiscally conservative.

povol · Jun 28, 2012

Keshav said:
Giant executive egos that overwhelm their sense of corporate responsibility which feeds their willingness to engage in a decades long spending war?

The answer may be as simple as Kawasaki and Suzuki are more fiscally conservative.

Some people may call that a will to win. Racing has always been, and will always be about buying speed. You want to go faster, you have got to spend some money. You want to beat your competitors, you have got to spend some money. The only question is what level of committment do you have. Honda Yamaha, and Ducati have committed to winning on the highest level. Of those 3, you have to admire Ducati the most, because they show intestinal fortitude by at least trying to beat the big boys.

Keshav · Jun 28, 2012

povol said:
Some people may call that a will to win. Racing has always been, and will always be about buying speed. You want to go faster, you have got to spend some money. You want to beat your competitors, you have got to spend some money. The only question is what level of committment do you have. Honda Yamaha, and Ducati have committed to winning on the highest level. Of those 3, you have to admire Ducati the most, because they show intestinal fortitude by at least trying to beat the big boys.

If racing is about who can buy the most speed - then wouldn't it be easier to just compare bankbooks? Maybe that works for you. But what thrills most fans are the incredible accomplishments of the riders; King Kenny coming from the flat-track scene and dominating all the more experienced European riders, Spencer taking side-by-side championships, wildman Schwantz head-to-toe with painful injuries battling it out with Rainey on the ...... ... Suzuki, iron man Lawson dominating the scene like ....... Godzilla, Doohan coming back with a barely functioning leg to take yet another championship, Hayden, against all odds, scrapping it out with Rossi all around the world to the sound of booing Rossi fans, Stoner on the powerful bucking bronco Ducati demolishing Rossi his first year on a factory bike, Lorenzo after a first year of repeatedly high-sides and painful injuries soldering on to come back and take the championship the following year. This is what makes the rest of us keep coming back for more.

povol · Jun 28, 2012

Keshav said:
If racing is about who can buy the most speed - then wouldn't it be easier to just compare bankbooks? Maybe that works for you. But what thrills most fans are the incredible accomplishments of the riders; King Kenny coming from the flat-track scene and dominating all the more experienced European riders, Spencer taking side-by-side championships, wildman Schwantz head-to-toe with painful injuries battling it out with Rainey on the ...... ... Suzuki, iron man Lawson dominating the scene like ....... Godzilla, Doohan coming back with a barely functioning leg to take yet another championship, Hayden, against all odds, scrapping it out with Rossi all around the world to the sound of booing Rossi fans, Stoner on the powerful bucking bronco Ducati demolishing Rossi his first year on a factory bike, Lorenzo after a first year of repeatedly high-sides and painful injuries soldering on to come back and take the championship the following year. This is what makes the rest of us keep coming back for more.

There is no if to it. Race teams with the biggest budgets, are usually the race teams with the most wins. That is true from grass roots racing, all the way to the pinnacle of racing. Im not sure what about that you dont get.

Keshav · Jun 28, 2012

povol said:
There is no if to it. Race teams with the biggest budgets, are usually the race teams with the most wins. That is true from grass roots racing, all the way to the pinnacle of racing. Im not sure what about that you dont get.

Your answer is far too simplistic. Go watch the movie "Moneyball" a perfect illustation of why that's not true. If it were true - then Ducati would win every race in WSBK. But it does not work that way in Nascar or any number of forms of automotive competition. A degree of parity is an essential element to the very concept or ideal of sportsmanship. Parity (or at least he attempt to maintain it) is what separates sport from war.

levigarrett · Jun 28, 2012

povol said:
Rossi was so superior to the competition in those days, im convinced he could have gone to just about any bike and won. In todays GP, with the talent what it is, its more about the bike than ever. Rossi is proof of what im saying. Is Rossi the seventh best rider in GP, not only no, but hell no. He is the 3rd best rider but cannot sniff 3rd in the standings. I also think Stoner is better than Lorenzo, but under " current " regulations, his bike is inferior to the Yamaha.

I don't think there's any doubt that if BMW thought they could compete, they would. Obviously, that cannot. Cowardly? Perhaps, but one thing is for sure, they're attempting to lower the performance bar so that they can squeak in with their current 1000cc machine. Dorna is open to the idea and BMW are attempting to apply leverage when they see an opening.

povol · Jun 29, 2012

Keshav said:
Your answer is far too simplistic. Go watch the movie "Moneyball" a perfect illustation of why that's not true. If it were true - then Ducati would win every race in WSBK. But it does not work that way in Nascar or any number of forms of automotive competition. A degree of parity is an essential element to the very concept or ideal of sportsmanship. Parity (or at least he attempt to maintain it) is what separates sport from war.

You are a Utopian Dreamer!

mylexicon · Jun 30, 2012

povol said:
Some people may call that a will to win. Racing has always been, and will always be about buying speed. You want to go faster, you have got to spend some money. You want to beat your competitors, you have got to spend some money. The only question is what level of committment do you have. Honda Yamaha, and Ducati have committed to winning on the highest level. Of those 3, you have to admire Ducati the most, because they show intestinal fortitude by at least trying to beat the big boys.

You're right, but speed is very cheap. In a world without displacement, induction, or fuel capacity limitations; speed is accessible by everyone. Competition, therefore, exists naturally without the need for corporate life-support.

Unfortunately, speed is so cheap and accessible that racers can kill themselves (and spectators) with very little effort. Governing bodies decided to restrict displacement, induction, and fuel capacity (in some series) to reduce the performance of the vehicles. Over the years, the major manufacturers have noticed a serendipitous side-effect. Performance controls bankrupt private companies who do not accept public financing and who do not enjoy subsidies from state governments. The rules that were once enforced for the safety of all competitors have now jeopardized the well being of the entire motor vehicle industry.

It's like you've walked into the lobby at HRC to find a 100-foot oak tree growing in a giant pot. HRC tell you how amazing their achievement is and how much work and engineering went into making the oak tree. The rest of us are looking out the window at all of the 100ft oak trees, growing naturally on public land with free sunlight, free CO2, and free rain water.

You are impressed by an inferior synthesis of the natural world because you are in love with the people who made it. Competition between human beings is as naturally as breathing. Corporations are not keepers of the flame.

Keshav · Jun 30, 2012

povol said:
You are a Utopian Dreamer!

So what you're saying is that nobody should have any ideals or pursue values like fair-minded sportsmanship. Just give up on the concept. Have all the riders shooting up steroids and turn a blind eye to widespread cheating. Dog-eat-dog. Kill or be killed. Right?

Your Rambo/militia mentality never fails to surface.

Keshav · Jun 30, 2012

mylexicon said:
You're right, but speed is very cheap. In a world without displacement, induction, or fuel capacity limitations; speed is accessible by everyone. Competition, therefore, exists naturally without the need for corporate life-support.

Unfortunately, speed is so cheap and accessible that racers can kill themselves (and spectators) with very little effort. Governing bodies decided to restrict displacement, induction, and fuel capacity (in some series) to reduce the performance of the vehicles. Over the years, the major manufacturers have noticed a serendipitous side-effect. Performance controls bankrupt private companies who do not accept public financing and who do not enjoy subsidies from state governments. The rules that were once enforced for the safety of all competitors have now jeopardized the well being of the entire motor vehicle industry.

It's like you've walked into the lobby at HRC to find a 100-foot oak tree growing in a giant pot. HRC tell you how amazing their achievement is and how much work and engineering went into making the oak tree. The rest of us are looking out the window at all of the 100ft oak trees, growing naturally on public land with free sunlight, free CO2, and free rain water.

You are impressed by an inferior synthesis of the natural world because you are in love with the people who made it. Competition between human beings is as naturally as breathing. Corporations are not keepers of the flame.

This.

michaelm · Jul 1, 2012

Keshav said:
This.

Exactly. That is why in my view FIM carry the ultimate blame, together with the EU economic/social theorist who forced the sale to bridgepoint/dorna when people who seemed to know what they were doing were running the series.

Bike guys should be running the sport, even if the short term commercial return is less.

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