BMW: Honda and Yamaha are 'killing' MotoGP

Karl Marx was right it just took a lot longer for capitalism to fail than he anticipated. Take that you filthy dogs!!!1111

Goatboy said:

Karl Marx was right it just took a lot longer for capitalism to fail than he anticipated. Take that you filthy dogs!!!1111

Click to expand...

You mean running dog capitalists, I take it.

mylexicon said:

Yes, and the ..... Soviets are the reason totalitarian communism failed.



You've never really understood the purpose of libertine rugged-individualism. Competition isn't a means unto itself. It is not implicitly moral. During the Enlightenment philosophers and culturists explored the counter-intuitive nature of managed or regulated competition, but it was a means to an end. The end was a more rapid development for mankind and incentives to explore robust mutually-beneficial cooperation (for the first time, the middle class would get to keep most of their earnings). The ends of competition are not present in MotoGP.



MotoGP is not a free market or even an open market. MotoGP has plutocratic governance. The nature of sports competition cannot necessarily be modified, but the environment in which sports operate can be altered to make sure the sport produces economic gains. Stick and ball sports have been modifying the environment for decades, with salary caps, leagues, collective bargaining, draft lotteries, etc. All artificial means of stimulating competition in a contest that is designed to eliminate competition in the long run.



Proper business models are part of the reason why the NFL is about 10x bigger than F1 and NASCAR. Even PGA Tour Golf makes better money when high profile players, like Tiger Woods, are dominant. Racing is stupid to its core, and corrupt all the way to the marrow. Even when organizers develop an innovation (e.g. Bernie's Concorde Agreement), they often hoarde every last penny for themselves. Racing is dying for a reason, but it isn't due to uncommitted competitors or ..... factories who happen to be legally-obliged to protect shareholder funds from rigged contests.

Click to expand...

The motives and even the aims of honda and yamaha plumb depths of japaneseness beyond my ken. Their motives would not seem to be wholly or even mainly commercial, or neither would ever have let valentino go, particularly since it cost yamaha fiat as well. It is even more definitely not the joy of pure competition against the best the world can offer, however fiercely and expensively they are prepared to compete against each other.

michaelm said:

The motives and even the aims of honda and yamaha plumb depths of japaneseness beyond my ken. Their motives would not seem to be wholly or even mainly commercial, or neither would ever have let valentino go, particularly since it cost yamaha fiat as well. It is even more definitely not the joy of pure competition against the best the world can offer, however fiercely and expensively they are prepared to compete against each other.

Click to expand...

Yes - in that context the scenario is not un-reminiscent of when the the Tokugawa shoganate reached its zenith in Edo, followed by the edict to wipe out all the Ronin (In this case, the privateers and lesser factories). Can world domination (of cars and bikes) be far behind? Or will there be a Meji Restoration? Japanese can be very good when it comes to establishing a business model - but they are perhaps less intuitive with regards to concepts of showbusiness or entertainment for the masses. Possibly they are worse when it comes to combining the two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS3tjP6Yh1w

Keshav said:

Yes - in that context the scenario is not un-reminiscent of when the the Tokugawa shoganate reached its zenith in Edo, followed by the edict to wipe out all the Ronin (In this case, the privateers and lesser factories).

Click to expand...

It was along such lines I was also thinking.

michaelm said:

It was along such lines I was also thinking.

Click to expand...

A fan of Kurosawa, Mifune, Nakadai perhaps???

Talpa said:

BMW are simply stating that Honda and Yamaha are only winning their own game, with rules written to advantage them, and prohibit others from competing. Honda and Yamaha have worked hard yes, but not nearly as hard as they would have worked under different regs-with more competition.



So what are Honda and Yamaha actually winning? 'The Honda and Yamaha cup'



And Bridgestone always wins anyway, hardly competition, hardly innovation.........how can it be called innovation? It's electronics technology that exists because of strict regs, not technology that has been created for advancement. Look at the times from 2006, hardly any difference to today-no progress, not faster, more boring and far more expensive..........how is this progress? Not too mention riders that have to adapt their style to the electronics and the tyres, rather than how it should be-the other way around.......

Click to expand...

I keep hearing this phrase. There are no rules that prohibit BMW, Suzuki, Kawasaki etc: from competing, period, end of. They simply do not want to spend the money it takes to compete with Honda and Yamaha. They all are positioning themselves to bring Honda and Yamaha down to their level of committment. I have no doubt in my mind that any of those manufacturers could compete and win, IF, they were committed to doing so. What they want is to dumb down the sport to make it easier . Thats not sport.



As far as times, your seriously comparing times from an era that had 5 years of development, compared to 6 races. They are already faster on most tracks than the 990's were, and these bikes are basically rev limited. Progress is progress, no matter what you beleive. Im getting to the point where i would like to see Honda and Yamaha leave the sport, then watch it dry on the vine like AMA has. There was an AMA event this weekend at Barber, and noone even started a thread. They have dumbed down machines and really close racing. The whiny "bored" fan couldnt grasp the concept of hard work creating technical superiority, so they demanded change. For some demented reason, they thought what someone worked endless hours to achieve, should be shared with competitors. I have said it time and again, this attitude has invaded the mindset of society at large, and it will be as destructive to sport, as it has been to man

Keshav said:

A fan of Kurosawa, Mifune, Nakadai perhaps???

Click to expand...

Certainly kurosawa and mifune.

Interesting that in a culture that is on the surface so modern - the Yakuza largely thrive out in the open with little interference from the police. A very feudal dynamic. While the Japanese public are caught up in the whole baseball craze - so Western because team sports was not really a concept prior to the war - I reckon that the real spirit of Japanese business is more akin to....

povol said:

I keep hearing this phrase. There are no rules that prohibit BMW, Suzuki, Kawasaki etc: from competing, period, end of. They simply do not want to spend the money it takes to compete with Honda and Yamaha. They all are positioning themselves to bring Honda and Yamaha down to their level of committment. I have no doubt in my mind that any of those manufacturers could compete and win, IF, they were committed to doing so. What they want is to dumb down the sport to make it easier . Thats not sport.



As far as times, your seriously comparing times from an era that had 5 years of development, compared to 6 races. They are already faster on most tracks than the 990's were, and these bikes are basically rev limited. Progress is progress, no matter what you beleive. Im getting to the point where i would like to see Honda and Yamaha leave the sport, then watch it dry on the vine like AMA has. There was an AMA event this weekend at Barber, and noone even started a thread. They have dumbed down machines and really close racing. The whiny "bored" fan couldnt grasp the concept of hard work creating technical superiority, so they demanded change. For some demented reason, they thought what someone worked endless hours to achieve, should be shared with competitors. I have said it time and again, this attitude has invaded the mindset of society at large, and it will be as destructive to sport, as it has been to man

Click to expand...

Much of what people really want can be distilled down to the fact that sport and the technology are not inherently linked. Humans (most of us) are more interested in the drama, the Olympian ideal of competition between two humans - as opposed to two giant corporations. That's why serious sport fans boo baseball players who use the best technology (steroids) to win.



In bike racing there needs to be a balance between technology and the racers themselves. Otherwise the Japanese might as well just have the bikes raced by robots. May the best robot win. Wheee!

Why should anybody blame BMW for not wanting to compete in the expensive exercise of designing the best bike for Bridgestone tires, within a set of arbitrary and mostly silly rules?

Saying that it makes sense only for Honda and Yamaha currently, locked in their Samurai duel and in their Shogunate tunnel vision, is a debatable but legitimate point of view.

mylexicon said:

Yes, and the ..... Soviets are the reason totalitarian communism failed. You've never really understood the purpose of libertine rugged-individualism. Competition isn't a means unto itself. It is not implicitly moral. During the Enlightenment philosophers and culturists explored the counter-intuitive nature of managed or regulated competition, but it was a means to an end. The end was a more rapid development for mankind and incentives to explore robust mutually-beneficial cooperation (for the first time, the middle class would get to keep most of their earnings). The ends of competition are not present in MotoGP. MotoGP is not a free market or even an open market. MotoGP has plutocratic governance. The nature of sports competition cannot necessarily be modified, but the environment in which sports operate can be altered to make sure the sport produces economic gains. Stick and ball sports have been modifying the environment for decades, with salary caps, leagues, collective bargaining, draft lotteries, etc. All artificial means of stimulating competition in a contest that is designed to eliminate competition in the long run. Proper business models are part of the reason why the NFL is about 10x bigger than F1 and NASCAR. Even PGA Tour Golf makes better money when high profile players, like Tiger Woods, are dominant. Racing is stupid to its core, and corrupt all the way to the marrow. Even when organizers develop an innovation (e.g. Bernie's Concorde Agreement), they often hoarde every last penny for themselves. Racing is dying for a reason, but it isn't due to uncommitted competitors or ..... factories who happen to be legally-obliged to protect shareholder funds from rigged contests.

Click to expand...

Where have you been Lex? JohnnyKnockdown has been worried about you.

Keshav said:

Thought we'd lost you. I agree - one cannot lose sight of the fact that the business model for racing is failing - tho I suppose from Honda's perspective - it would be fine if there were only Honda cars and bikes on the roads and all races were as per Moto 2.

Click to expand...

Right. And perhaps the aim of the "production racer"--the nomenclature the 'independent' journalists are echoing and perhaps told to call what is in reality just Honda'CRT'. But since its Honda, lets give it a slightly elevated name.

J4rn0 said:

Why should anybody blame BMW for not wanting to compete in the expensive exercise of designing the best bike for Bridgestone tires, within a set of arbitrary and mostly silly rules?

Click to expand...

Well said, agree (a rare thing). Its a difficult concept for some people to understand (Pov).

J4rn0 said:

Why should anybody blame BMW for not wanting to compete in the expensive exercise of designing the best bike for Bridgestone tires, within a set of arbitrary and mostly silly rules? Saying that it makes sense only for Honda and Yamaha currently, locked in their Samurai duel and in their Shogunate tunnel vision, is a debatable but legitimate point of view.

Click to expand...

What is the difference between Yamaha and Honda, and lets say Kawasaki and Suzuki. What is it they have, that the latter doesnt. Why can 2 of them excel in GP, and others dont even bother. Some of you say the rules are designed to favor Honda, yet Yamaha has dominated them in the 800 era, and currently in the 1000 era. That narrative didnt hold water, so now we are including Yamaha in the list of things that are killing GP.. Who is next.. Dorna, with their shortsightedness, and unwavering determination to ride the Rossi gravy train is whats killing GP

Keshav said:

Interesting that in a culture that is on the surface so modern - the Yakuza largely thrive out in the open with little interference from the police. A very feudal dynamic. While the Japanese public are caught up in the whole baseball craze - so Western because team sports was not really a concept prior to the war - I reckon that the real spirit of Japanese business is more akin to....

Click to expand...

I'm assuming that you're using modern = western and/or democratic influences. And, certainly, what we in the west call modern is there to be found, but the locals have definitely put their own spin on it. From what I've seen, I wouldn't say that Yakuza are thiriving out in the open. They have their tentacles in building/construction, gambling, drugs and the Mizu Shoubai (prostitution, etc.)--the usual industries for organised crime, but they don't operate with impunity. Some local cops might be bought off, or refrain from peeking into dark corners, but other sections of the force confront them head on. I'd say the level of organised crime in Japan is fairly low when compared to many other countries. The level of cronyism, however...



Baseball (along with Sumo) has also been waning in the last 10 years or so, whereas soccer is booming. As for motorbike racing, Motegi gets its 40,000 most years, which is not bad seeing as though it's in the middle of nowhere, and the Indy course means that you're often a long way from the action. Money and coverage for the Suzuka 8 hour race has really dropped away, and the same with JSBK. The halcyon days of the All Japan 500 series are, sadly, long gone.



Anyway, as to how any of that pertains to Yamaha and Honda... I can't offer much. Large corporations--Japanese, or otherwise--would seem to me to have something of a feudal dynamic, or at least an obvious hierarchical system as a given. Kropotkin wrote a piece last year, I think, that posited the idea that Yamaha 'for Japanese reasons' were letting Honda win the MotoGP championship--something along the lines of "it's not good for one of them to win all the time." Seemed rather dubious at the time to me, since Honda once had a run of 6 titles in the 90s, not long after Rainey's hatrick for Yamaha, and there was also Rossi's three in a row from 2001-2003.



I would say that the Japanese manufacturers went racing back in the day in search of credibility and recognition, stayed because of their successes, enjoy their power and influence and would very much rather not let anyone else have it, even though--as others have pointed out--this form of racing has become largely irrelevant to their manufacture and sales of motorcycles. Perhaps they fear being usurped in the same way they effectively marginalised most European manufacturers in the marketplace following their rise to prominence.



When it comes to the rules and negotiations, a cultural tactic I've witnessed is to bargain hard for conditions, accepting points you don't like in order to get what you really want--and then afterwards set about getting those objectionable points removed. Issues surrounding the US bases in Okinawa are perfect examples of that. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Honda and Yamaha played the same game with the GPC.

On the whole Re: Yakuza we're mostly on the same page. I did recently read a rather scholarly book on the Yakuza which while terrifically informative was also really dry. But having had a long-standing fascination with them I managed to slog through it. When I say operate out in the open - I mean to the extent that unlike the American mob - the Yakuza don't meet in the back of grimey pork stores in North Jersey or 50 square-foot social clubs on Mott Street. The Yakuza are known to congregate and live in warehouse sized buildings with the name of their "association" painted in 6 ft high letters on the front of the building. And unlike in the States - Japanese cops are in fact terrified of Yakuza because their influence is strong very high up in the police, judicial and upper levels of government.





I could see Honda letting Yamaha win one or two. Honda has good PR people advising them same as any other big corp.

Keshav said:

A fan of Kurosawa, Mifune, Nakadai perhaps???

Click to expand...

Some of the most beautiful movies ever made. Personal favourite Throne Of Blood, Mifune's performance at the end is amazing!

michaelm said:

You mean running dog capitalists, I take it.

Click to expand...

Yes, it was a further attempt at satire.

povol said:

What is the difference between Yamaha and Honda, and lets say Kawasaki and Suzuki. What is it they have, that the latter doesnt. Why can 2 of them excel in GP, and others dont even bother. Some of you say the rules are designed to favor Honda, yet Yamaha has dominated them in the 800 era, and currently in the 1000 era. That narrative didnt hold water, so now we are including Yamaha in the list of things that are killing GP.. Who is next.. Dorna, with their shortsightedness, and unwavering determination to ride the Rossi gravy train is whats killing GP

Click to expand...

The difference between Yamaha and Honda and Kawasaki and Suzuki, in the MotoGP era, is that the first two have won all the titles (but one), the other two nothing, and consequently withdrew. In order to have winners, losers are required; but if most give up, it's bad. When you have only two contenders, and it is becoming more and more difficult for others to enter that competition because of tire monopoly and silly rules like the 21 liters and 6 engines, that are making it really difficult and horribly expensive to design a MotoGP bike around those blessed Bridgestones, it's not good. Simple.

BarryMachine said:

Nuf said about you then

Click to expand...

care to defend your view?