Best season of all time .... ?

Tom and jumkie. In your eagerness to put Lorenzo on a pedestal and rossi in the gutter, you have ignored that Rossi was riding injured for all but round 1. Am I to take it that you don't believe he was and he's simply older and slower?

woody996 said:

Tom and jumkie. In your eagerness to put Lorenzo on a pedestal and rossi in the gutter, you have ignored that Rossi was riding injured for all but round 1. Am I to take it that you don't believe he was and he's simply older and slower?

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Coming 3rd in the championship and scoring wins and podiums by Rossi despite his injury can hardly be described as relegating him to the "gutter". But here in lies the problem, when its pointed out that Rossi got beat, its taken as such great offense as to be characterized as hating. Now look at the alternative, the opposition is not only refusing to except the reality of simply getting beat by the best most consistent rider, but then must extrapolate that this would not have been the outcome with a healthy Rossi. But the fact is this is not true. Second, you say Rossi rode hurt, what riders do not ride with injury? Rossi returned very fast, but his leg injury at some point was healthy healed enough for him to get podiums. At that point he's on par as far as health to the acceptable standard. Lorenzo came in hurt to the season, but I'm sure he could have broadcasted all season that his wrist was just not one hundred percent. BTW, if being hurt is your go to, then consider that at Qatar was the only time Rossi beat Lorenzo. If you are talking about the shoulder injury, once Rossi battle for the podium at Motegi and scored the victory at Sepang, we could pretty much dispel that this was of significant hindrance.

FACTORY said:

I could have sworn Rossi beat Lorenzo at Motegi also.....so he beat Lorenzo back to back. To borrow the nickname you thought up....Rossi "Two Times Gused" him!!

Of course with your reasoning....those results don't count because Lorenzo dialed it back and played it safe.



Lorenzo's sparkle helmet has again distracted you....

As far as the 4 DNS for Rossi and Lorenzo loosing all of them.....it could have happened. I never said Rossi would have taken those for rounds. My point is if a healthy Rossi was in the mix during those races (and the rest of the season) and if Stoner had his front end issue ironed out...Lorenzo may not have swept those races.



Lorenzo did win those races, score 383, and earn the title....these are the facts. You can't say that he would have had the same outcome with each of these if the other aliens were in top form all season...just like Lorenzo was.

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Just like you cant say that Rossi would have scored the points he scored in 08 without Pedrosa having 2 DNF's and Stoner having 2 DNF's and Lorenzo with 4DNF's and a DNS. For some reason, your own rules of logic dont seem to apply to Rossi .

this whole "what if" argument is really a waste of time

povol said:

Just like you cant say that Rossi would have scored the points he scored in 08 without Pedrosa having 2 DNF's and Stoner having 2 DNF's and Lorenzo with 4DNF's and a DNS. For some reason, your own rules of logic dont seem to apply to Rossi .

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Have they ever? We are talking to a guy who equated Rossi's crash tantamount to the computer glitch that malfunctioned resulting in Pedrosa's crash. What hope is there for reasonable debate?

Jumkie said:

Coming 3rd in the championship and scoring wins and podiums by Rossi despite his injury can hardly be described as relegating him to the "gutter". But here in lies the problem, when its pointed out that Rossi got beat, its taken as such great offense as to be characterized as hating. Now look at the alternative, the opposition is not only refusing to except the reality of simply getting beat by the best most consistent rider, but then must extrapolate that this would not have been the outcome with a healthy Rossi. But the fact is this is not true. Second, you say Rossi rode hurt, what riders do not ride with injury? Rossi returned very fast, but his leg injury at some point was healthy healed enough for him to get podiums. At that point he's on par as far as health to the acceptable standard. Lorenzo came in hurt to the season, but I'm sure he could have broadcasted all season that his wrist was just not one hundred percent. BTW, if being hurt is your go to, then consider that at Qatar was the only time Rossi beat Lorenzo. If you are talking about the shoulder injury, once Rossi battle for the podium at Motegi and scored the victory at Sepang, we could pretty much dispel that this was of significant hindrance.

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I think you've misinterpreted what I was saying. He was beat this year but I'm not so sure the result would have been the same if Rossi hadn't done his shoulder and leg - the shoulder per his words was affecting his ability to stay with the leaders for race distance and was the main factor in the 8s, 10s or whatever the gap was where he slowed down at the end. You are confident that it would have been the same had Rossi not had his issues - that is, you are discrediting the impact of these factors on his ability to compete. The only one with similar injury/effect was Pedrosa during 2010. Lorenzo was fine during 2010 - maybe with the exception of round 1.

I didn't call you a hater. I simply am observing the assumptions you are making to draw your conclusions.



I don't know what would have happened but I haven't written him off like you seem to have.

woody996 said:

Tom and jumkie. In your eagerness to put Lorenzo on a pedestal and rossi in the gutter, you have ignored that Rossi was riding injured for all but round 1. Am I to take it that you don't believe he was and he's simply older and slower?

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I do believe Rossi was hurt, nor am i trying to put him in the gutter (unless 3rd is what you call the gutter). I'm simply pointing out that it is incedibly ungracious of you to refuse to recognize that Rossi was not the best rider this year. Yes Rossi was hurt and things didn't go perfectly for him but this is not a random event, Rossi's problems were a function of his own actions, a function of him trying to beat Lorenzo, something that this year at least he could not do

Jumkie said:

Ah yes, stand corrected, I meant before title management for a win. Ah, you bring up Motegi (for a podium). Haha, ok, without rehashing it, I'd concede Lorenzo got beat straight up for this purpose. Even then, you cannot fathom managing the championship right? How long have you been watching racing? Look no further than Valencia, did you see the 125s? Here you have a rider that has been crushing the competition all season, and what did he do to make sure he won the title? Oh yeah, he dialed it back. This is very common and you can pretty much detect it because its so obvious among title contestants. Honestly Factory, how anybody could show their face after trying to make a case that Rossi's crash resulting in a leg injury was an equipment malfunction is so outside the universe of logic that its without joy that I try to reason with you.

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talking about wanting it both ways!! You say Rossi could only beat Lorenzo 2 times after his leg break so he would not have won the title if healthy all year.....yet throw in the "Lorenzo was managing his title chase" so he was most likely going to loose those "post leg break" race win/podium anyway. You say Lorenzo's wins/podiums all season long can't be devalued because of Pedrosa/Stoner/Rossi having issues and injuries...yet Rossi beating Lorenzo at Motegi and Sepang were gifts because Lorenzo did even try. You bash others for using excuses when Rossi does not win....yet use excuase for Lorenzo in for these 2 races (especially Motegi...Lorenzo banged fairings with Rossi to try for 3rd. If he was playing if safe to clinch point, why risk it battling with another rider???...he looked like he was trying for 3rd to me and lost out that time).



you twist too much stuff around....I have said that Lorenzo earned his title. I have also said Lorenzo would still have been one of the favorites to earn the title if all aliens raced strong all season, but I think it would have been much closer than the points margin he won by (I guess this is a crime to think he would have scored fewer points). Any Rossi/Stoner/Pedrosa what if's I bring up are simply that. You talk like Lorenzo would have had 100% the same season had the other 3 aliens been strong all season.



Last point....I said tires are equipment that a rider uses, just like rims/suspension parts/engines/frames/electronics/bodywork. I also said that if a tire does not hold up (breaks/chunks apart) or if it fails to work as designed or claimed (get up to temp or maintain that temp range) then it would be equipment failure. I did not say Rossi's tires failed and therfore it was the only cause of his leg breaking....Rossi did say he backed off a bit, but was suprised that the tire lost temp in that short of time. It was not like he stopped the bike or ran through a field of cold damp grass and then tried to make that corner.



If it makes you feel better to talk about what I said about tires being classified as equipment.....please continue. Now continue to jump down everyone you see with an opinion unlike yours. I don't want your internet confidence to drop.

I found Desmosedici GP11 quite different. It seemed smaller, more compact and the tail is very interesting.



Maybe Rossi has been participating of the dev. of GP11 more than we thought.

FACTORY said:

If it makes you feel better to talk about what I said about tires being classified as equipment.....

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Nobody will deny that tyres are equipment, the funny thing is that you think Rossi had a tyre faliure. If a rider gets passed on a straight do you consider him to have had engine failure? Afterall that engine was no doubt designed to make his bike go faster than its competition, and it isn't doing it.

Tom said:

I do believe Rossi was hurt, nor am i trying to put him in the gutter (unless 3rd is what you call the gutter). I'm simply pointing out that it is incedibly ungracious of you to refuse to recognize that Rossi was not the best rider this year. Yes Rossi was hurt and things didn't go perfectly for him but this is not a random event, Rossi's problems were a function of his own actions, a function of him trying to beat Lorenzo, something that this year at least he could not do

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You've misinterpreted me here. I've always believed that Lorenzo was a worthy champion, was the best rider this year and fully deserved his title. There is no ungraciousness regarding this. My point is simply that I don't believe that the gap would be so distant - i.e. 8, 9, 10 seconds if Rossi was fit. Lorenzo may have come out on top still. I don't know that and neither do you.



Jumkie's post pretty much implied that once back Rossi lost by these margins and that's the way he would have expected it to be if Rossi wasn't injured. I'm not discrediting Lorenzo's championship - he deserves it and he is a true world champion in all senses of the word. That is more than I can say for Nicky 'Rainbow' Hayden in 2006 - i.e. he was just in the right time, right place, the only strong rival was Rossi and he got hit up the arse with a rainbow. For the record, I like Hayden, think he is a genuine person - I don't consider him an alien though meaning that when stiff competition is around, he'll run second.

woody996 said:

I'm not discrediting Lorenzo's championship - he deserves it and he is a true world champion in all senses of the word. That is more than I can say for Nicky 'Rainbow' Hayden in 2006 - i.e. he was just in the right time, right place, the only strong rival was Rossi and he got hit up the arse with a rainbow.

For the record, I like Hayden, think he is a genuine person - I don't consider him an alien though meaning that when stiff competition is around, he'll run second.

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I think people will debate how much difference Rossi's shoulder made for years, mainly because it seemed to get much better and worse for no reason over a period of weeks depending on Rossi's results. It's just one of those things. To me it doesn't really matter. This year Jorge Lorenzo was a better rider thn Rossi, and he showed it by beating Rossi fair and square on the same equipment, the only man to do so.



As for Nicky, he is a true world champion and anyone who understands motogp knows so.

Tom said:

I think people will debate how much difference Rossi's shoulder made for years, mainly because it seemed to get much better and worse for no reason over a period of weeks depending on Rossi's results. It's just one of those things. To me it doesn't really matter. This year Jorge Lorenzo was a better rider thn Rossi, and he showed it by beating Rossi fair and square on the same equipment, the only man to do so.



As for Nicky, he is a true world champion and anyone who understands motogp knows so.

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You're entitled to your opinion.

woody996 said:

You're entitled to your opinion.

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Indeed, i am sure there are some people who will disagree with the opinions in my above post but they are people who's interest in motogp is fundamentally on different grounds to my own.

You should all read this if you haven't already

povol said:

Just like you cant say that Rossi would have scored the points he scored in 08 without Pedrosa having 2 DNF's and Stoner having 2 DNF's and Lorenzo with 4DNF's and a DNS. For some reason, your own rules of logic dont seem to apply to Rossi .

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Problem is though Billy Bob............and rather obviously Nobody is saying that 2008 was the Best season of all time....?



After all this is what the thread is about, is it not? Though its twisted so much its now just another very large pile of ....

Although I have no doubt that Rossi had a shoulder injury despite the fact that we have not seen x-rays and therefore we are having to take 'his' word for it I strongly believe that the shoulder had little impact on his ability to ride the bike. It is my OPINION that Rossi's shoulder was more a negotiation tool then a riding impediment. I suspected as much and made my opinion known before he was given the green light on testing and believe that my opinion was strengthened by the apparent disappearance of the shoulder injury after the announcement. If we remember before the green light was given the shoulder was apparently so bad that finishing the season was seriously in doubt. It is only now that his times in testing were not at a level one would expect that the shoulder has come out of retirement as a possible explanation of events.

Talpa said:

Problem is though Billy Bob............and rather obviously Nobody is saying that 2008 was the Best season of all time....?

After all this is what the thread is about, is it not? Though its twisted so much its now just another very large pile of ....

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Barry can correct me if im wrong, but he did not start this thread asking if this was the most entertaining season. He was asking if this could be considered the best season on the grounds of breaking the points record against what many will consider the toughest competition the series has ever had. Now follow me real close, because this is where it gets complicated for you. The points record he surpassed was set in 2008, so until last Sunday, that season was the best of all time, points wise. Now Lorenzo has the best season of all time, points wise. Get it. I know its been a rough season for you, and it only got worse in the last 2 days, but your going to have to get used to having some Moto Gp records in the books without Rossi's name beside them. It will be tough , but as you grow up, you will look back and laugh at the thought of worshiping another human being. Its a stage everybody goes thru, Beatles fans, Elvis fans,New Kids on the Block fans, Justin Bieber fans. Go steal one of your moms Xanax, watch an episode of Glee, and it will pass, i promise.

What does a guy have to do to have his season rated at least among the best of all time?



If setting the highest points total of all time, never finishing lower than fourth, winning nine races, and beating Rossi on his own bike - along with Stoner and Pedrosa, too - doesn't cut it......what the feck does??

notabikerther4useless said:

What does a guy have to do to have his season rated at least among the best of all time?



If setting the highest points total of all time, never finishing lower than fourth, winning nine races, and beating Rossi on his own bike - along with Stoner and Pedrosa, too - doesn't cut it......what the feck does??

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Thats easy, have the name Rossi.