Austrian GP 2016

michaelm said:

Again, you guys continue to cry conspiracy theory (while conveniently not addressing their actual arguments) in regard to a few guys on an obscure MotoGP forum (the forum itself might qualify as flea-bitten admittedly given the spam problems of recent times) while ignoring your boy having promulgated the mother of all conspiracy theories to the world media last year; look up your own definition of irony.

Why does any conspiracy need to be invoked in regard to tyre changes in premier class GP bike racing over the last decade anyway?. Dorna have manipulated the tyres quite openly. It is a matter of historical record that the control tyre disadvantaged Ducati, Suzuki and Kawasakl to the extent of the latter two leaving the sport, permanently at this time in Kawasaki's case, a midseason change in 2012 disadvantaged Honda, and that less popular riders have concomitantly been disadvantaged, such as Casey Stoner twice, and both Lorenzo and Pedrosa this year with Michelin replacing Bridgestone.

Whether the changes have been made deliberately to advantage Rossi is another question, but that he hasn't won titles recently is hardly evidence against this; the possibility at least exists that his "natural" finishing position in the championship at his current age is 4th where he finished in 2013.

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What guys might those be? And whose boy is mine? I am not aligned with any particular group or rider. Or perhaps you believe I am conspiring with t the few people who "liked" my post. While it is undeniable that Dorna have manipulated tire changes, there's no hard evidence to bare out the theory that all changes were made for the sake of Rossi. And it's not just tire issues. According to the Powerslide think tank, everything that causes disadvantage to any other rider is de facto done at the behest of Rossi. Undoubtedly he is favored, but no rational person believes this to the extent of a handful here who are always foaming at the mouth every time Rossi scratches his balls the wrong way. It's like listening to holy rollers who always say, "There are no coincidences."

Do you honestly believe that Dorna wanted Kawasaki and Suzuki out of the way? No, of course not. They just weren't committed enough at the time to spend the money to keep up with the changes.

As to their "actual arguments", they've been countered by level-headed (and some not so level-headed) people here, who have, for their trouble, have been abused with insults, demonized for confronting enormous holes in said theories and had far too much ad hominem sidestepping slopped upon them in lieu of real dialog. I have not seen or heard anything new on that front that would tempt me to jump into the cesspit of revisiting the same old arguments in which few if any ever give an inch when confronted by contra arguments that are equally compelling.

With regard to Rossi's "conspiracy", I don't think you can call it that. It was just the ranting of an old guy who wants the Mexicans to get off his lawn. If Dorna with all their money and influence are truly conspiring to put Uncle Vale up for another championship, they sure are doing a lousy job of it.

povol said:

That result was inevitable barring a crash or blowup on Ducati's part. The only thing undetermined was who was first and who was second. If you looked at the weekend as a whole and studied the session analysis, the Ducati's were playing with the field. Outside of qualifying, they were the only bikes the entire weekend that dipped into the 1.23's and they even went mid 1.23's while everyone else struggled to get in the low 124's. In the race, they managed the Yamaha's giving them false hope and would put 2-4 10ths on them anytime they wanted. They were able to conserve tires all the while pulling away from the Yamaha's at will. I would bet the Ducati strategy was to push just hard enough to put a comfy gap on the field, saving fuel and tires, then settling it in the last few laps with no danger from behind. They could have won by 10 seconds had they pushed. Anywho, congrats to the ......., hard ...., maniac, whatever he calls himself. Brilliant ride, i always like to see someone get their first win. Lorenzo looked to have located his balls and Marquez finished exactly where his bike allowed. He was 4th in FP4, qualified 5th and was 6th in warm up. Thats all he was ever going to get unless someone dnf'd. Damage control achieved for a rough weekend.

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From Krop

That, it turned out, was all part of the plan. Ducati had recognized that fuel and tire life would be critical at the fastest track of the season, where the throttle is against the stop for almost half of each lap. And so they came up with a strategy to cope with this. Knowing their superior acceleration would keep them in contention for the first half of the race, they could save fuel until the end. When they let rip, they soon dropped the Movistar Yamahas. This was a day of Ducati domination after all. But they dominated through strategy, not raw horsepower.

I figured as much. Anyone who thought the Yamaha's stood a chance half way through the race was kidding themselves.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I remember you saying that. The reason I am so harsh is because of the amount of drop off. If we were to use provols video game rating system Lorenzo would go from a 9-9.5 in optimal conditions to a 3 or lower when its cold. Thats a problem. Especially next year. Optimum conditions will likely be rare.

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I'm not sure when Lorenzo became an "optimal conditions" racer bro, oh wait, I do, when Dorna introduced the Michelintino tires.

There have been plenty of cold & wet races Lorenzo has performed well, won & podiumed. The dramatic change is so dramatic that it begs the question, what's changed?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I have no argument with lorenzos wins and titles. I wasn't comparing him to Rossi or Marc. I was just saying he can only ride in optimal conditions. Obviously there is more good weather days than bad in motogp. I need to look no further than Lorenzos wins and titles to see that. DORNA tries to schedule races when the weather is best in the area the race is in. .... it must be a conspiracy in favor of Lorenzo. Jumkie can you confirm?

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Well bro, the facts don't support the assertion that Lorenzo is an optimal conditions rider.

This year what may appear as an "optimal conditions" necessity is related to one thing: tires.

The first preseason tests Lorenzo was so far ahead it looked like the season would be lopsided. I remember thinking, ...., Lorenzo should shut up about how easy the fast lap times were coming. One small tweak to the tires and at the PI test the roles were exactly reversed. Rossi who had looked 4th best (or last ) of the top 4 suddenly looked to be Marquezesk. Lorenzo was mired in midpack, what changed?

On a related note, I think Casey Stoner deserves credit for the first Ducati win in a number of years. And i know his detractors will honor him with this much deserved accolade because they know machines are developed by the test riders. They said the last time Ducati came 1-2 was back in 07. In just half a season, Casey Stoner, Ducati test rider, has with his accurate and precise development skills, managed to convert winless machine into a race winning machine. Well done Casey! What better way to show us his testing input has paid off? Sure, he could have taken a wildcard and won on the thing himself; but that's not a test riders job, his job is to make the bike better for the riders being paid to get the results. Mission accomplished!



If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Little Walter said:

What guys might those be? And whose boy is mine? I am not aligned with any particular group or rider. Or perhaps you believe I am conspiring with t the few people who "liked" my post. While it is undeniable that Dorna have manipulated tire changes, there's no hard evidence to bare out the theory that all changes were made for the sake of Rossi. And it's not just tire issues. According to the Powerslide think tank, everything that causes disadvantage to any other rider is de facto done at the behest of Rossi. Undoubtedly he is favored, but no rational person believes this to the extent of a handful here who are always foaming at the mouth every time Rossi scratches his balls the wrong way. It's like listening to holy rollers who always say, "There are no coincidences."

Do you honestly believe that Dorna wanted Kawasaki and Suzuki out of the way? No, of course not. They just weren't committed enough at the time to spend the money to keep up with the changes.

As to their "actual arguments", they've been countered by level-headed (and some not so level-headed) people here, who have, for their trouble, have been abused with insults, demonized for confronting enormous holes in said theories and had far too much ad hominem sidestepping slopped upon them in lieu of real dialog. I have not seen or heard anything new on that front that would tempt me to jump into the cesspit of revisiting the same old arguments in which few if any ever give an inch when confronted by contra arguments that are equally compelling.

With regard to Rossi's "conspiracy", I don't think you can call it that. It was just the ranting of an old guy who wants the Mexicans to get off his lawn. If Dorna with all their money and influence are truly conspiring to put Uncle Vale up for another championship, they sure are doing a lousy job of it.

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So Valentino is not a conspiracy theorist, he is just a naughty boy?

And it is OK for you to disdain other posters and their opinions, just not for them to do so to you?

I am sure you find the criticism of Rossi 's behaviour tedious, but that is not the same as it being untrue. No sophistry will change what he alleged in regard to both the PI and Valencia 2015 races to other than allegations of conspiracy either, although what his motives were is more open to speculation, and your speculation as to his motives may well have elements of truth.

I myself have found pretty much every significant rival he has had, for nigh on 20 years now, being demonised rather tedious and am coming to increasingly admire MM for dealing with same as he has.

Daniboy said:

Firstly props to Iannone for his well won gp , brave tyre choice and it paid off .
Dovi said his hard tyre didn't drive off the corners as well as his teammate and the way he couldn't get back on terms adds weight to that.

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So you do understand that tires make or break performance, which is a direct influence on results. Yet stunning in the same post you fail to acknowledge what you seemingly assert--tires drive results.

Daniboy said:

Also Lorenzo beating Rossi shouldn't have happened on michelintino tyres should it?

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I shake my head when I read all manner of intangible explanations for Jlo's change in performance, like a loss of balls (Povol saying Jlo found his balls) or the "crisis of confidence" (practically a FOX messaging directive by the sport media and race commentators) and other suggestions to explain why Lorenzo has gone from podium certainty to circulating in odd positions like 15th when simultaneously the other Yamaha is contending for the win in commanding fashion. To parody a retort made famous by Noam Chomsky, 'it's the tires, stupid.'

Daniboy said:

Also Lorenzo beating Rossi shouldn't have happened on michelintino tyres should it?

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Mdub has made a great observation about "optimal conditions" for Lorenzo, though I disagree with his conclusion (that Lorenzo has become an "optimal conditions" 'rider') I do agree that the Rossi-spec tires necessitate certain conditions for Lorenzo to overcome the disadvantage. Make it a bit colder or hotter, outside of this range, and the advantage to Rossi is 'optimal'! Read what I've said slowly, until you understand the meaning of its significance. That is, there is an environmental window where Rossi’s tires allow Lorenzo to complete with him. It's by virtue of Lorenzo's superior ability and a Herculean effort to beat Rossi. Otherwise we have a very uncharacteristic stunning and outlier performance by Rossi as we witnessed at Jerez. The role reversal from the standard we've seen the last 4 years is so wildly dramatic that it's as if Lorenzo and Rossi have traded leathers. But alas, they haven't traded leathers, what has changed?

Daniboy said:

Also Lorenzo beating Rossi shouldn't have happened on michelintino tyres should it?

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Lorenzo continues to be the faster more consistent rider than Rossi. All of 2015, 14, 13, 12, 11,...has made this practically a law of nature. What changed?

'It's the tires, stupid.'

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Little Walter said:

What guys might those be? And whose boy is mine? I am not aligned with any particular group or rider. Or perhaps you believe I am conspiring with t the few people who "liked" my post. While it is undeniable that Dorna have manipulated tire changes, there's no hard evidence to bare out the theory that all changes were made for the sake of Rossi. And it's not just tire issues. According to the Powerslide think tank, everything that causes disadvantage to any other rider is de facto done at the behest of Rossi. Undoubtedly he is favored, but no rational person believes this to the extent of a handful here who are always foaming at the mouth every time Rossi scratches his balls the wrong way. It's like listening to holy rollers who always say, "There are no coincidences."

Do you honestly believe that Dorna wanted Kawasaki and Suzuki out of the way? No, of course not. They just weren't committed enough at the time to spend the money to keep up with the changes.

As to their "actual arguments", they've been countered by level-headed (and some not so level-headed) people here, who have, for their trouble, have been abused with insults, demonized for confronting enormous holes in said theories and had far too much ad hominem sidestepping slopped upon them in lieu of real dialog. I have not seen or heard anything new on that front that would tempt me to jump into the cesspit of revisiting the same old arguments in which few if any ever give an inch when confronted by contra arguments that are equally compelling.

With regard to Rossi's "conspiracy", I don't think you can call it that. It was just the ranting of an old guy who wants the Mexicans to get off his lawn. If Dorna with all their money and influence are truly conspiring to put Uncle Vale up for another championship, they sure are doing a lousy job of it.

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Rossi got his hard tyres last year to stop Lorenzo 4 race romp. Most of the other riders disagreed and wanted to keep the soft. That's not a conspiracy it's the truth. Watch Lorenzos documentary. Fact is it's not a conspiracy, Dorna and half the world want Rossi to win again and will do everything to make it happen. I'm sure it will next year or 2018 if he hold his bottle

I think you will find the people you call Mexican are in fact Spanish. It hasn't been rossi's lawn for 7 yrs, get over it, you forget that the press were all over Marquez lawn pre season threatening his family. Is that good for the sport?

JPSLotus said:

You're clearly new to GP racing then if you think this is anything other than a typical Dovi performance.

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I disagree. Dovi challenged for the lead, the FACT is the two Ducati riders had all the same equipment except one thing: tires. Iannone made the correct choice for the race distance. It was a balsy choice given everyone else elected for harder tires. Michelin recommended the tires Dovi rode. If Iannone had lost the race due to tire wear we'd be saying what an ...... If we believed tires influence performance then why accuse Dovi of being complacent when the softer option turned out to be the difference?

If Dovi and Iannone had the same tires and Dovi lost, perhaps then we could entertain the assertion that Dovi settled. Of course, I'd still contend the assertion because Iannone has been much maligned (right or wrong) for taking extreme risks. I don't see why Iannone taking the greater risk make him an ..... but because he took the greater risk today makes him the hero. Dovi rode as good a race to win. Unfortunately for him his teammate took the greater risks (typical of him in fact) and this particular time it's paid off. Dovi is not a complacent rider. But he is the more prudent of the two factory Ducati riders. It's why he will be riding for Ducati next year.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

ananthakannan said:

Nice ...

As evident in Qatar, Saschering, even Austrian GP, top riders including VR has yet to fully understand and come to terms with tyre profiles offered by Michelin. Decision made by Lorenzo, Marc and Ianone are more of their gut feeling and they look brilliant, when they come out on top. However, when Rossi does the same, conspiracy thing kicks in

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk

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Nice ..., but completely off the mark....as usual. The TIRES have been the revelation for Rossi on such a dramatic fashion that I shake my head how something so stunning can be so downplayed, chalked up to: Lorenzo has lost his balls, can't ride in cold/hot, is a headcase, etc etc. Let me get this straight, we've seen Lorenzo bust bones ride competitively a day remove but has no balls? A guy who needed to ride a perfect race in a pressure cooker situation for the title no less, but he's now cracked mentally? Has won wet cold races, podiumed, and held competitive pace in these conditions for several years, but now has what, forgot how to manage pace in the cold/hot exactly just this year?

The exact opposite has happened for Rossi's performance this year, he's gone from last of the top 4 contenders to 1st! Yes first overall this year. Performing better in terms of pace on average than Marquez, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa. What has changed? One thing: tires.

And they continue to change, getting closer and closer to Rossi's optimal spec.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Richy56 said:

Rossi got his hard tyres last year to stop Lorenzo 4 race romp. Most of the other riders disagreed and wanted to keep the soft. That's not a conspiracy it's the truth. Watch Lorenzos documentary. Fact is it's not a conspiracy, Dorna and half the world want Rossi to win again and will do everything to make it happen. I'm sure it will next year or 2018 if he hold his bottle

I think you will find the people you call Mexican are in fact Spanish. It hasn't been rossi's lawn for 7 yrs, get over it, you forget that the press were all over Marquez lawn pre season threatening his family. Is that good for the sport?

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Excellent post.

Camelot Ezpeleta learned that Lorenzo winning is not good for business. Carmelo Clause has reacted plenty to the minions who demand RossiTV. DORNA shitcanned Race Direction in quick order as a reaction to Rossi's Debacle. DORNA shitcanned the penalty point system in reaction to Rossi's Debacle. But we're supposed to believe Carmelo Clause who orchestrated Rossi's coerced return to Yamaha wouldn't demand tire changes to 'improve' the championship?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Well another 'first in a while' after this race

If my memory is still with me as I grow older (I am not much of a google to sound intelligent type), this year is the first since 2007 where we have had two first time MotoGP winners in ....... (the official) and ....... by attitude (in 2007 we had Stoner and Vermuelen, in 2006 Pedrosa and Bayliss).

Good to see and seemingly overlooked, whether it be a Ducati track or not Ianonne still had to bring it home and as much as my preference would have been Dovi (although I had tipped Ianonne at the Island), congrats and enjoy the moment. Although it does not change the past, one can hope that it may change him for the future in as much as he now has a taste and that taste means managing risk, not becoming risky.

A few pics

I watched the race late last night as I was up in Scottyland for the weekend.
I enjoyed it, decent race, but seen better.
AI Good for you, took a gamble and it paid off, congrats
AD hard lines, you took the safer less of a gamble and got beat by your team mate. try harder.
JL Good to see you have got your head off the ex and back at the track where it belongs, Now you have eight races left to win this thing.
VR must try harder, the tenth won't come like that.
MM bravely done, did what you could with what you got and must have been in some pain. But I still don't like you!!!
Rest who ran, meh!
Highlight of the whole weekend, Or what little I saw of it!
The drop dead gorgeous scenery around that track, .... I could go there without the racing. In fact it has just jumped to the top of the tracks to visit list. Was really trying for COTA next year but fcuk that it's Austria now.

Little Walter said:

With regard to Rossi's "conspiracy", I don't think you can call it that. It was just the ranting of an old guy who wants the Mexicans to get off his lawn. If Dorna with all their money and influence are truly conspiring to put Uncle Vale up for another championship, they sure are doing a lousy job of it.

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Compared to 2013 they are actually doing a fantastic job of it. Once getting Rossi back on a Yamaha after the dismal Ducati experiment he was back with a 1 in 4 chance of contending. Normally that would be enough, all any rider would ever dream of really. But alas, not Rossi. On the same tires he and the rest of the field other than unpopular Stoner chose in a one and only hasty rider 'vote' (why don't they still vote?) poor Rossi finished a distant 4th, or in other words 'last'. How did the great one react to that? Yes you guessed it, he made a statement, to the press, to make the message clear. He said "if I don't become more competitive, I'm going to quit, no sorry 'retire'.Cleary he had no intention of 'retirement' he just had to mention it to put Carmello into a spin. No Rossi means a MotoGP loss of millions. Carmello is definitely not calm. Rather than finishing a distant 4th they managed to get Rossi actually contending, even leading, by a mile, cruising to the holy grail, double digits, 10.

The only problem, he choked, big time, and he knew it. Rather than have the world see him gag humiliated with lorenzo down his throat, he went the only avenue to save face, as you so eloquently said, blame the ....... Mexican Marq.
Looking back I have to give Rossi credit, he is the absolute undisputed GOAT of manipulation.

Anyway if you want to skip the rant, Rossi hasn't won the championship not because Camello hasn't tried God bless rather Mark is not Gibbernau, and Lorenzo is not Biaggi. They are both better than Rossi.

Lorenzo can race in rain.



Lorenzo can race in the cold rain.



Lorenzo can race in hot rain.




He can't race in Rossi-spec tires wilst in the rain. There's a difference.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

I disagree. Dovi challenged for the lead, the FACT is the two Ducati riders had all the same equipment except one thing: tires. Iannone made the correct choice for the race distance. It was a balsy choice given everyone else elected for harder tires. Michelin recommended the tires Dovi rode. If Iannone had lost the race due to tire wear we'd be saying what an ...... If we believed tires influence performance then why accuse Dovi of being complacent when the softer option turned out to be the difference?

If Dovi and Iannone had the same tires and Dovi lost, perhaps then we could entertain the assertion that Dovi settled. Of course, I'd still contend the assertion because Iannone has been much maligned (right or wrong) for taking extreme risks. I don't see why Iannone taking the greater risk make him an ..... but because he took the greater risk today makes him the hero. Dovi rode as good a race to win. Unfortunately for him his teammate took the greater risks (typical of him in fact) and this particular time it's paid off. Dovi is not a complacent rider. But he is the more prudent of the two factory Ducati riders. It's why he will be riding for Ducati next year.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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I'm convinced that had Dovi been slightly less prudent, he could have gotten past Iannone. The Michelintino tires activate in the second half of the race. While Iannone did a great job of maintaining the tires so he had tire left for the second half, my belief is that if Dovi was willing to really go for it, he could have gotten past Iannone as he was the only one with the horsepower to do so. We'll forever disagree about this bud, I've always felt Dovi is a second tier rider relative to the top tier. He's missing 2 or 3 tenths which is the difference between his 1 win, and 10 or more wins in the premier class.

I don't disagree about the prudence bit being the reason he is with Ducati next year. Iannone would have too much to prove against Lorenzo. Not a good mix for teammates.

Jumkie said:

]

On a related note, I think Casey Stoner deserves credit for the first Ducati win in a number of years. And i know his detractors will honor him with this much deserved accolade because they know machines are developed by the test riders. They said the last time Ducati came 1-2 was back in 07. In just half a season, Casey Stoner, Ducati test rider, has with his accurate and precise development skills, managed to convert winless machine into a race winning machine. Well done Casey! What better way to show us his testing input has paid off? Sure, he could have taken a wildcard and won on the thing himself; but that's not a test riders job, his job is to make the bike better for the riders being paid to get the results. Mission accomplished!



If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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I expect the Ducati to be strong at Misano for the same reason since Stoner got to test there already prior to the GP. I believe that was what the pre-race private Losail test was about. Would have been interesting to see what kind of impact it had, had he been able to do the test before the Qatar GP.

birdman said:

Compared to 2013 they are actually doing a fantastic job of it. Once getting Rossi back on a Yamaha after the dismal Ducati experiment he was back with a 1 in 4 chance of contending. Normally that would be enough, all any rider would ever dream of really. But alas, not Rossi. On the same tires he and the rest of the field other than unpopular Stoner chose in a one and only hasty rider 'vote' (why don't they still vote?) poor Rossi finished a distant 4th, or in other words 'last'. How did the great one react to that? Yes you guessed it, he made a statement, to the press, to make the message clear. He said "if I don't become more competitive, I'm going to quit, no sorry 'retire'.Cleary he had no intention of 'retirement' he just had to mention it to put Carmello into a spin. No Rossi means a MotoGP loss of millions. Carmello is definitely not calm. Rather than finishing a distant 4th they managed to get Rossi actually contending, even leading, by a mile, cruising to the holy grail, double digits, 10.

The only problem, he choked, big time, and he knew it. Rather than have the world see him gag humiliated with lorenzo down his throat, he went the only avenue to save face, as you so eloquently said, blame the ....... Mexican Marq.
Looking back I have to give Rossi credit, he is the absolute undisputed GOAT of manipulation.

Anyway if you want to skip the rant, Rossi hasn't won the championship not because Camello hasn't tried God bless rather Mark is not Gibbernau, and Lorenzo is not Biaggi. They are both better than Rossi.

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Yes, Audi, Honda and all of the manufacturers are spending hundreds of millions of dollars simply to finish second.

Jumkie said:

I'm not sure when Lorenzo became an "optimal conditions" racer bro, oh wait, I do, when Dorna introduced the Michelintino tires.

There have been plenty of cold & wet races Lorenzo has performed well, won & podiumed. The dramatic change is so dramatic that it begs the question, what's changed?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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#93?

Jumkie said:

Lorenzo can race in rain.



Lorenzo can race in the cold rain.



Lorenzo can race in hot rain.




He can't race in Rossi-spec tires wilst in the rain. There's a difference.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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MotoGP "geniuses" comparing older Lorenzo performances with far more sophisticated custom electronics to 2016 spec ecu and Michelin tires. Is there a racing series that never changes anything? BSB? If there is, maybe you should recommend Lorenzo go race in THAT series. MotoGP is supposed to be prototype racing... the tip of the spear! Bike/tire technology is supposed to be under continuous development. NOTHING is going to stay the same in Grad Prix racing, so what may benefit some riders one year, will not stay the same the next year or the year after. Riders MUST be able to ADAPT or go to a different series where they wont ever need to learn new tires, new electronics, or new bikes (if such a series even exist).

....... ridiculous to accuse MotoGP of slanting the board toward Rossi for switching to a different tire manufacturer, YET at the exact same time CRY that tires that should help Lorenzo win more aren't forced on everyone and kept that way for the remainder of his GP career. Crying about MotoGP being rigged while begging for the series to be rigged for Lorenzo!