Austrian GP 2016

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Estrogen blocker? Really Vudu? I responded to a bunch of erroneous points you tried to make in your post. Don't try to get too cute with the question marks, because your real belief is Lorenzo didn't put the effort in. You've said as much in the past, and openly questioning his effort/weakness has been your modus operandi over the past bunch of posts. Don't start trying to move the goal posts when you get called on it.

Rossi and Marquez are essential to this point as they are the two heaviest brakers currently on the grid. Marquez ran away with the race at the Sachsenring when he went to slicks because he was able to get the requisite heat into the front when the conditions were still variable enough to make it a very risky proposition.

Burgess made the comment that the SNS's were made to Rossi's preferences. The tires certainly were of massive benefit to anyone who could ride the hell out of the front. Toni Elias is very heavy on the brakes as a rider, and it's no surprise when he got Pedrosa's cast-offs (which Pedrosa couldn't make work, sound familiar?) he made the most of it.

I would say even to this day, Rossi is the absolute best late braker in GP, and it was true even years back during the previous Michelin era. Their tires have always been designed around a less than ideal front for most riders, while giving a ton of rear grip. The front gives feel if you are willing to try and brake as late as Rossi can, and most can't. So the rest are contingent on trying to get grip from warmer track temperatures, which poses a problem should a rider need to conserve the tire during the race since if you have to conserve, you start losing grip.

Mugello is irrelevant since 1) it was one of the only times I can recall Lorenzo was able to get the setup to brake that late and 2) ambient and track temperatures were high enough to make getting heat into the front far easier; 78 degrees air temperature, 120 degrees track temperature. Makes a world of difference if you're dealing with tires that are tough to heat up when the temperature starts dropping as was the case at Assen, and the Sachsenring. Funny thing, at the time, the Rossi fans insisted Lorenzo wasn't braking that late, and that Rossi could pounce any time he wished.

Funny how you make the estrogen comment, then close out your post to whine about this forum. You have about as much consistency as Rossi had at Ducati. It was a prediction I made, and got wrong. Big deal. I didn't spend endless posts arguing semantics as you just did. I admitted my prediction was wrong. Takes a man to admit being wrong.

Where is your evidence that the 2016 Michelins were made with one rider in mind? You keep going back to a different era.

I didn't whine about this forum, just acknowledged it's for bullshitting. I lift weights and although a test booster I'm taking is probably a waste of money... it has some estrogen blockers in it. That's why I'm so cool, calm, and collected. :cool:
 
Where is your evidence that the 2016 Michelins were made with one rider in mind? You keep going back to a different era.

I didn't whine about this forum, just acknowledged it's for bullshitting. I lift weights and although a test booster I'm taking is probably a waste of money... it has some estrogen blockers in it. That's why I'm so cool, calm, and collected. :cool:

Design philosophy has been the same with these as they were with the old ones. Colin Edwards did a lot of work on these tires, and Rossi said he liked them. Doesn't take much effort to figure out where that all went.

Start a steroid cycle along with HGH. It will have a far more positive impact. Test boosters are a waste of money and time.
 
In Assen Rossi got so much feedback from his specially made michelintino tyres that it surprised him and he fell off , in Germany his specifically tailored tyres gave him brain fade and caused him to ignore pit signals, this last race Iannone accidentally picked up the sns that Dorna ordered for Vale and came in Vales rightful place . Dorna is making a proper mess of this tenth championship, they will need to do sabotage on Marc and Jorge's bikes for the next few races and hope our forum friends don't notice.
what you mean like spies in 2012?
 
Where is your evidence that the 2016 Michelins were made with one rider in mind? You keep going back to a different era.

Buddy, there is no smoking gun, no press release that you'll read Michelin have designed a tire that suits Rossi. Just like you won't read many of the western meddling in mid-east is about oil, no, you'll read something about liberation etc.

CarmelORNA Ezpeleta understands popularity means money. And Michelin still remember what happens if Rossi doesn't like their tires. You haven't heard Rossi whine to high heaven lately, but when things don't go suited to him he threatens to leave, accuses riders of not following unwritten rules, etc. Rossi is the biggest whiner in the paddock by a long shot, though somehow Stoner became the moaner, how's that for trumpization of reality. Valentino the humble candidate.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
What Lorenzo said after day 1 may have been true about them having the largest performance advantage he had ever seen in Moto GP. Im assuming he meant literally since 2002, not the history of the sport, but they had around 6- 7 10/ths at their disposal over the next best bike and knew it, planned the race with it in mind, then executed it. It was 100% bike as im convinced any 2 riders on the grid could have taken their place on Friday and got the same result. All they had to do was work out the first few laps then not crash. A win is a win, but this doesnt prove anything about Ianonne. They would have won the race without going to full power mode with 6 laps to go, but it is fun to rub someones nose in it when they have been beating your ... for years. Looking at race analysis, you might as well put a blinking red light next to the lap where they flipped the switch, its that obvious. Good on them even though its nothing they had planned. It does make you wonder how in the hell they can figure out how to get 260hp to the ground and Honda with its limitless budget cant.
 
In Assen Rossi got so much feedback from his specially made michelintino tyres that it surprised him and he fell off , in Germany his specifically tailored tyres gave him brain fade and caused him to ignore pit signals, this last race Iannone accidentally picked up the sns that Dorna ordered for Vale and came in Vales rightful place . Dorna is making a proper mess of this tenth championship, they will need to do sabotage on Marc and Jorge's bikes for the next few races and hope our forum friends don't notice.

You remind me of Talps. Rossi didn’t win every race during his SNS era. Yet we know Michelins were tailored tires for him. This year he isn't leading despite the tire advantage. Dorna stack the deck but Rossi still has to ride the bike. You're saying, well look, I can win at black jack in a casino to assert the odds are not stacked in the house's favor. Just like when Talps said, well Rossi crashed at Indy, if he's so powerful, why didn’t he get the track repaved. Ironically, it was repaved a few years later.

In the cases you speak of above, you've overlooked the pace Rossi carried at Assen. No surprisingly, you mention the crash wilst ignoring the performance. Similarly, at Germany Rossi had the pace, thanks to his tires. Not pitting at the optimal window had zero to do with tires. It's silly of you to assert it. At Austria, Iannone specifically gambled on the non Rossi tire, he went with the softer one. Why? Because the harder one might not have yielded the win. That's what riders are forced to do, work around the problem that the tires are designed around Rossi in mind. So they must adapt their riding, put in Herculean effort, or ride to the limits.

And regarding Ducati's win, you must also give some credit to their development of the bike under Stoner's tutelage. Again, I realize the multifaceted circumstances may be a bit much for you to wrap your head around... why if the tires Iannone did NOT use against Rossi resulted in a win to prove the tires are not designed with Rossi in mind. But in Austria, the unique characteristics seemed to favor Ducati, not the least being the great development work that Stoner has provided. You see, influence has an effect. Just like the influence of Michelintino tires do on Rossi's performance.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
What Lorenzo said after day 1 may have been true about them having the largest performance advantage he had ever seen in Moto GP. Im assuming he meant literally since 2002, not the history of the sport, but they had around 6- 7 10/ths at their disposal over the next best bike and knew it, planned the race with it in mind, then executed it. It was 100% bike as im convinced any 2 riders on the grid could have taken their place on Friday and got the same result. All they had to do was work out the first few laps then not crash. A win is a win, but this doesnt prove anything about Ianonne. They would have won the race without going to full power mode with 6 laps to go, but it is fun to rub someones nose in it when they have been beating your ... for years. Looking at race analysis, you might as well put a blinking red light next to the lap where they flipped the switch, its that obvious. Good on them even though its nothing they had planned. It does make you wonder how in the hell they can figure out how to get 260hp to the ground and Honda with its limitless budget cant.
It's why I think Stoner not wild karting was the absolute correct decision. His development work spoke in the hands of the other Riders he is tasked to help. It was a brilliant decision.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
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If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
What Lorenzo said after day 1 may have been true about them having the largest performance advantage he had ever seen in Moto GP. Im assuming he meant literally since 2002, not the history of the sport, but they had around 6- 7 10/ths at their disposal over the next best bike and knew it, planned the race with it in mind, then executed it. It was 100% bike as im convinced any 2 riders on the grid could have taken their place on Friday and got the same result. All they had to do was work out the first few laps then not crash. A win is a win, but this doesnt prove anything about Ianonne. They would have won the race without going to full power mode with 6 laps to go, but it is fun to rub someones nose in it when they have been beating your ... for years. Looking at race analysis, you might as well put a blinking red light next to the lap where they flipped the switch, its that obvious. Good on them even though its nothing they had planned. It does make you wonder how in the hell they can figure out how to get 260hp to the ground and Honda with its limitless budget cant.

It's them wings man. Ducati will be lost without them come next year. Lorenzo's going to be extra screwed.
 
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This race probably wasnt the best time to say Lorenzo found his balls as he almost always beats Rossi in dry conditions. Yes, the tires have something to do with his wet weather performance, but there is no denying he is suffering mentally when it come s to wet and changing condition racing, he says so himself. When a rider the caliber of Lorenzo is literally limping along in last place because of a damp track, its mental, especially for a rider who has proven in the past he can be competitive in the rain and is riding the best bike on the grid You cant say, oh, the Michelins dont fit his style, as his style and everyone elses is thrown out the window once it rains. No wet tire in the world is going to allow Lorenzo to exploit his riding style. There is no shame in not being the best rain rider, or even top 5, but falling out of the top 10 is inexcusable

The only explainable thing I could find about Lollos drop in performance was the fact that his longer time girlfriend suddenly disappeared from his twitter&farcebook friends page.
We all know how that dumped feeling goes, just not yourself for a while.
Anyhoo it was the missus who noticed it and brought it to my attention and I smuggishly said, "yeah it'll be on the forum soon"
How wrong I was!!!:giggle:
 
I've already freely acknowledged his influence on tire issues. All a matter of record, undeniable as it were. It's all the attendant rumors, wild speculation etc that are attached to this well documented aspect of Rossi's influence, the majority of which cannot in any way be substantiated. Way too much hysteria, too much tempest in a teapot "controversy" over things of no significance. Nobody is totally without bias, but the competition to turn everything he says or does into corroborating evidence of his Satanic grip on the reins of Dorna brings out the worst in some of the otherwise logic-driven Rossi critics, who create controversy out of thin air, subject all counter critics to the sort overwrought acrimony one would subject heretics to in the Middle Ages. Interestingly, some of the boppers end up having things of real substance to add to the dialog that are more grounded in reality than some of the more wild theories from the more intelligent members, who are so keen on proving how superior they are. I still find the hard core boppers repellent, but disdain (there's that word again) the idea of getting sucked into a cycle of time-wasting arguments with them because they don't acknowledge straight questions with straight answers. The whole dynamic is analogous to that of waring religious factions, where the same old arguments repeat for centuries - and it's all so futile. Sucks when there's nothing of substance to discuss here, because that's when everybody gets extra cranky and interesting dialog disappears down the rabbit hole.
All of this and most of what you have posted on this thread concerns your dislike of various posters or at least their posting styles rather than any exposition of why what they are posting is wrong.

Sure the pudding is not infrequently over-egged but there are several matters which are non-theoretical and not dismissable imo by the automatic cry of "conspiracy theory".

As I have said, there have been many tyre changes in the last decade which have disadvantaged opponents of Valentino's, with the 2012 mid season tyre change particularly capricious I would say, but none to his detriment of which I am aware since the abolition of the race day special tyres.

Dorna is also a commercial media organisation owned and run by venture capitalists/merchant bankers and it is undeniable that a 10th Rossi title win would be a bonanza financially for them, and garner vast extra media attention for them.

Do I personally think Dorna try to fix individual race results? No actually, but I also don't think the suggestion that they might try to slant things Rossi's way is as outrageous as you and others consider it to be.

In your earlier post you claim Rossi has now got on with it and that MM is in a position in the title race where he can afford to be relaxed, but Rossi did carry on his rhetoric in many interviews in the off-season and can similarly afford to desist now with Lorenzo's demise at Yamaha a matter of history, and MM's position as HRC's chosen one now and for a long time going forward untouchable by him. MM has also rather amply demonstrated that he is not greatly susceptible to intimidation, whatever the attempted means.
 
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Where is your evidence that the 2016 Michelins were made with one rider in mind? You keep going back to a different era.

I didn't whine about this forum, just acknowledged it's for bullshitting. I lift weights and although a test booster I'm taking is probably a waste of money... it has some estrogen blockers in it. That's why I'm so cool, calm, and collected. :cool:

Its not nearly as complicated as you make out. At each test and after every session of a race the Michelin techs wander around the garages getting feedback from the riders for future development. Each rider will obviously say what suits them. So Rossi asks for what he prefers, as do the rest of the riders. Michelin collects the feedback and develops the tyres.

Obviously they cant make a specific tyre for each riders preference, they have to compromise. So who do you think has the greatest influence in this compromise? Unpopular Lorenzo, or wildly popular Rossi? Dorna don't even have to be involved. Simply in terms of development the popular opinion is Rossi is the best.

If that's how you think it should be then fine, I don't agree but I cant argue its the most profitable way to run the sport. But at the same time, for some of us, admittedly the minority, potentially ruin it. Just don't act so naïve as if to say no no false never hater.
 
random question.

why is it Christian Gabbarini is the most wanted chief mechanic in the paddock (redding, Miller, Lorenzo)? why Jeremy Burgess isn't?
 
random question.

why is it Christian Gabbarini is the most wanted chief mechanic in the paddock (redding, Miller, Lorenzo)? why Jeremy Burgess isn't?

Jeremy Burgess is 70 odd and wanted to retire years ago; it was Valentino who induced him to continue as long as he did, before they somewhat fell out. His wife also had health issues, breast cancer I think, in the latter stages of him still being with Valentino.
(EDIT He is 63 actually, but the rest still applies. You can add the championships with Doohan and even before that to the 7 with Rosdi in terms of title wins with which he has been involved, so like Rossi he has nothing to prove).
 
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Jeremy Burgess is 70 odd and wanted to retire years ago; it was Valentino who induced him to continue as long as he did, before they somewhat fell out. His wife also had health issues, breast cancer I think, in the latter stages of him still being with Valentino.
(EDIT He is 63 actually, but the rest still applies. You can add the championships with Doohan and even before that to the 7 with Rosdi in terms of title wins with which he has been involved, so like Rossi he has nothing to prove).

I didn't know he's retired. thanks michael.
 
Its not nearly as complicated as you make out. At each test and after every session of a race the Michelin techs wander around the garages getting feedback from the riders for future development. Each rider will obviously say what suits them. So Rossi asks for what he prefers, as do the rest of the riders. Michelin collects the feedback and develops the tyres.

Obviously they cant make a specific tyre for each riders preference, they have to compromise. So who do you think has the greatest influence in this compromise? Unpopular Lorenzo, or wildly popular Rossi? Dorna don't even have to be involved. Simply in terms of development the popular opinion is Rossi is the best.

If that's how you think it should be then fine, I don't agree but I cant argue its the most profitable way to run the sport. But at the same time, for some of us, admittedly the minority, potentially ruin it. Just don't act so naïve as if to say no no false never hater.
That's it. Valentino should win a 10th title by being good enough to win a 10th title, which he admittedly almost was last year, not for the benefit to the popularity of the sport or because he is deserving in view of his past deeds, anything else cheapens other achievements, not least his own.

Walter is probably right about old men shouting at people to get off their lawn, in my case if not Valentino's. Part of what irks me is doubtless nostalgia for bike races rather than media events when the sport was actually run by bike guys.
 
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All of this and most of what you have posted on this thread concerns your dislike of various posters or at least their posting styles rather than any exposition of why what they are posting is wrong.

Sure the pudding is not infrequently over-egged but there are several matters which are non-theoretical and not dismissable imo by the automatic cry of "conspiracy theory".

As I have said, there have been many tyre changes in the last decade which have disadvantaged opponents of Valentino's, with the 2012 mid season tyre change particularly capricious I would say, but none to his detriment of which I am aware since the abolition of the control tyre rule.

Dorna is also a commercial media organisation owned and run by venture capitalists/merchant bankers and it is undeniable that a 10th Rossi title win would be a bonanza financially for them, and garner vast extra media attention for them.

Do I personally think Dorna try to fix individual race results? No actually, but I also don't think the suggestion that they might try to slant things Rossi's way is as outrageous as you and others consider it to be.

In your earlier post you claim Rossi has now got on with it and that MM is in a position in the title race where he can afford to be relaxed, but Rossi did carry on his rhetoric in many interviews in the off-season and can similarly afford to desist now with Lorenzo's demise at Yamaha a matter of history, and MM's position as HRC's chosen one now and for a long time going forward untouchable by him. MM has also rather amply demonstrated that he is not greatly susceptible to intimidation, whatever the attempted means.


It's not about dislike of any poster in particular. I'm just pointing out that I tend not to engage when hearing the same old rhetoric, because the conversation historically goes nowhere. You yourself have often clumped together specific groups of posters here, repeatedly referring to them as "those of your ilk" ,,, so a bit of kettle/black, don't you think?

More importantly, I've already said I don't dispute the tire issue. It's all the extravagant conclusions that people jump to in the wake of the tire issue that are for the most part really stretching credulity. If there's an actual debatable fact to discuss, that's something I can sink my teeth into. There just hasn't been much of that in this particular thread. What's wrong with some of the stuff posted, is that it is IMHO, based on theories with little foundation in reality. You know the saying, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails." When I see that someone is in that mode, with an axe to grind, I try not to engage them. When they're talking about something with insight and texture, I will jump in the pool.

As to what Rossi said, in the off season, you would agree, I suspect, that much of it was fueled by loaded questions from the press who dragged it out for all it was worth. It's his opinion, for what it's worth and apparently by MM's lights, not worth much. He's self-centered and (not unjustifiably) proud of his legacy, as it were, and now he's reached the grumpy old man stage of his life and regretting his decision to go to Ducati, he's pretty butt hurt and, trying to regain what's left of his reputation, and being human, he gets stupid and lashes out; the result of which are in reality, negligible, except to those who want to re-live it repeatedly and take some kind of weird pleasure in getting all pumped up on outrage. Most of the top riders, have had their fair share of gaffs and instances of poor judgement and in some cases, dangerous behavior and if you took them one by one and added up the stats for each rider, Rossi wouldn't look quite so bad. But because he's "The Goat" everybody puts a magnifying glass over him and largely gives the others a pass. It's not unlike the Trump effect, though I don't consider them to be equally detestable. But you get the idea. For some racing is the greatest sport. For others it's a religion. Religious types always require a Devil to pit themselves against.
 
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