Austrian GP 2016

JPSLotus said:

GP has long been slanted in Rossi's favor. It's been discussed numerous times about the advantages he received at HRC, which saw his final season with the team turn into a decisive second half advantage when HRC was willing to give Gibernau inferior equipment as a way to try and appease him into staying for 2004.

The GP tire situation has long been a problem as Michelin were manufacturing Rossi-centric tires with the SNS. Since no one was able to get SNS tires made to their spec other than Rossi, the tires were worthless for plenty of riders as their riding styles didn't allow for them to activate the tires so they could work ideally. Toni Elias was the one rider who made them work when he was fortunate enough to get his hands on them.

It's a fact that in the wake of the successful Ducati campaign in 2007, Rossi was agitating to get his own supply of Bridgestone tires by the midpoint of that season, for 2008. He went as far to threaten to Carmelo/Dorna that he would quit MotoGP if he were not given a supply. Carmelo brokered a special deal that allowed only Rossi --not both Yamaha riders-- to use Bridgestone tires specially for 2008. Nothing like that has ever been done in any motorsport to my recollection, where on vehicle was shod with one manufacturer's tires, and the other had to use the other manufacturer. Bridgestone had no desire to supply Rossi at all as they were more than content with supplying the teams that they were supplying. This is purely conjecture on my part, but I believe part of that deal was the promise Bridgestone would be made sole tire supplier from 2009 onward as a quid pro quo for helping out with supplying Rossi.

Since there are only a couple of riders who were around to experience the Michelin tires of 2006, the newer crop of riders have no comparison point. But Rossi made the comment the Michelin's rode the way he remembered. Stoner commented that much like back then the rear is strong, while the front is not. The general design characteristics of the tires has not changed much. If it were not for Rossi's COTA crash, Mugello engine failure, and mistake at Assen, Rossi would be either leading the championship standings, or would be in P2 at worst. Dorna/Michelin have done their job quite well. It's up to Rossi to turn it into results.

Click to expand...

I've already freely acknowledged his influence on tire issues. All a matter of record, undeniable as it were. It's all the attendant rumors, wild speculation etc that are attached to this well documented aspect of Rossi's influence, the majority of which cannot in any way be substantiated. Way too much hysteria, too much tempest in a teapot "controversy" over things of no significance. Nobody is totally without bias, but the competition to turn everything he says or does into corroborating evidence of his Satanic grip on the reins of Dorna brings out the worst in some of the otherwise logic-driven Rossi critics, who create controversy out of thin air, subject all counter critics to the sort overwrought acrimony one would subject heretics to in the Middle Ages. Interestingly, some of the boppers end up having things of real substance to add to the dialog that are more grounded in reality than some of the more wild theories from the more intelligent members, who are so keen on proving how superior they are. I still find the hard core boppers repellent, but disdain (there's that word again) the idea of getting sucked into a cycle of time-wasting arguments with them because they don't acknowledge straight questions with straight answers. The whole dynamic is analogous to that of waring religious factions, where the same old arguments repeat for centuries - and it's all so futile. Sucks when there's nothing of substance to discuss here, because that's when everybody gets extra cranky and interesting dialog disappears down the rabbit hole.

Arrabbiata1 said:

In which case, you shouldn't have said this then should you?...



...because it is utterly incorrect.



I never suggested that 'tyres were to blame'. Moreover, your statement that 'Rossi hasn't even won a wet race on the new Michelins' was simply met by my response that this is because he crashed out of the Assen race. As you say yourself , 'it was all human error' which was precisely my point, otherwise contrary to your statement, he would have won a race on the wet Michelin's. Although you also partially attributed this to learning the new wets...



That's not what he said..perhaps it's what you inferred again?

"I did a mistake, I was too fast, I pushed too hard, it was too much."

"Because I could open the throttle earlier [than in the first part of the race], I arrived to Turn 10 and braked in the same point but I arrived 4-5km/h faster and I lost the front.

"It was a stupid mistake unfortunately and I'm very sorry for all the team, for me and for all the guys because today we could win because we had an advantage compared to the others."

"During the weekend, during all the practices, I was always very precise in riding style and I never made a mistake"

"All the other guys made a mistake, crashed and everything."

"Unfortunately I made the mistake in the important moment."

"When it passed to the second lap, I saw 1m49.3s [lap time], so I said 'I want to push another lap to take advantage and afterwards try to control the situation' but unfortunately the mistake was that I pushed too hard."



Reminds me of the 2011 - 2012 Ducati years.

Whatever, as per usually you are virtually incapable of posting on this forum without mentioning Valentino Rossi. I never mentioned Vale. My post purely challenged your ridiculous statement that changeable weather has always been an issue for Lorenzo, which is complete nonsense and utterly untrue..

Click to expand...

You didn't have to mention Vale, you jumped into a discussion I was having with JPS about Michelin tires being made specifically for Vale. Rossi was already one of the main subjects being discussed.

moto vudu said:

You didn't have to mention Vale, you jumped into a discussion I was having with JPS about Michelin tires being made specifically for Vale. Rossi was already one of the main subjects being discussed.

Click to expand...

Nobody is ever compelled to mention Vale, including yourself, but you certainly do, whenever it suits your narrative.

Little Walter said:

Nobody is ever compelled to mention Vale, including yourself, but you certainly do, whenever it suits your narrative.

Click to expand...

If the comparison is Lorenzo vs Rossi on Michelins, Vale has already been brought up. I didn't start the discussion.

moto vudu said:

If the comparison is Lorenzo vs Rossi on Michelins, Vale has already been brought up. I didn't start the discussion.

Click to expand...

Should be painfully obvious that any discussion of tires will eventually involve Rossi - because he's been so influential in that aspect of the sport; rather like Godwin's Law. ‎Reductio ad Valerium.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Arrabbi and Jumkie have proved that sometimes he can ride in the wet. But even in the wet things have to be perfect for him to do well. I do understand that he dislikes these tires more than most of us dislike a former member around here but I still think overall hes been a poor wet rider. Has he ever done well in a changing conditions race?

Click to expand...

As Jum suggested - Aragon is the perfect example. There are plenty of examples throughout his career Dubby that Jorge has excelled in dubious conditions although Valencia in particular sticks in my mind, because he crashed!!...2012 I think because of his incredible pace in horrendous conditions. The race commenced on a lethal drying track - definite intermediate conditions but to make it home, slicks were a no-brainer. Pedrosa was leading but ran wide and when Jorge encountered and lapped Ellison on the Paul Bird CRT machine from memory he was too impatient and ventured out on to the damper part of the track and got on the power too early and highsided. Similarly at Donington 2009, which was even worse - a slippery cold track , he was very quick and if anything overconfident but touched the white line on the entry to Goddards.

I do remember Lorenzo conceding ahead of Motegi last year that he lacks consistency in the rain and as I said, I do think that the Assen accident had much to do with this, but this year he has attributed his short comings in the wet due to a complete lack of feel from the hard tyre which neither suits his set up or style. However, this was not always the case. I recall him speaking very favourably about the harder Michelin wet during his Moto GP maiden year at the first day of practice at a sodden Philip Island. At that time he was considered a strong favourite due to his formidable form in the rain.

To suggest that changeable weather has always been an issue for Jorge would in turn suggest that someone has only been watching for three seasons at the most.

moto vudu said:

You didn't have to mention Vale, you jumped into a discussion I was having with JPS about Michelin tires being made specifically for Vale. Rossi was already one of the main subjects being discussed.

Click to expand...

No, I purely called you out on this statement which is simply untrue...

moto vudu said:

His issues really began when the weather changed and that has always been a weak area for him.

Click to expand...

That you refuse to concede that is either denial or ignorance.

Arrabbiata1 said:

No, I purely called you out on this statement which is simply untrue...



That you refuse to concede that is either denial or ignorance.

Click to expand...

I still stand by my statement that wet weather is a weakness for Lorenzo. He is far better in warm, dry conditions. Stating wet weather is a weakness doesn't have to mean he has never won or will never win in the wet, it just means he isn't as likely to do well in the wet as he is in the dry.

moto vudu said:

I still stand by my statement that wet weather is a weakness for Lorenzo. He is far better in warm, dry conditions. Stating wet weather is a weakness doesn't have to mean he has never won or will never win in the wet, it just means he isn't as likely to do well in the wet as he is in the dry.

Click to expand...

Except all of the evidence speaks to this being a tire issue, not an actual weakness. Given that he's won a number of races in the wet, it actually speaks to it being a tire issue. Everything he has said this year has been as has already pointed out several times to you, is that he cannot get any feel from the front tire.

RCV600RR said:

Yes, Audi, Honda and all of the manufacturers are spending hundreds of millions of dollars simply to finish second.

Click to expand...

Ducati fields the most bikes, they just scored a win since god created dirt. Their last and only title was a decade ago. Ducati had been making steady improvement to get to 07, then their fortunes too a nose dive as a result to changes that benefited Honda & Yamaha. From 05 to 2015 this has been Ducati's plight.

Suzuki spends millions too. Their last championship was 00. They had also been making steady gains, until 07, then all that changed on a whim too. They exited the sport then returned and are at about the same spot when they left.



If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

JPSLotus said:

Except all of the evidence speaks to this being a tire issue, not an actual weakness. Given that he's won a number of races in the wet, it actually speaks to it being a tire issue. Everything he has said this year has been as has already pointed out several times to you, is that he cannot get any feel from the front tire.

Click to expand...

So in Assen & Germany do you think every rider except Lorenzo was getting adequate feedback from the front? Could it be possible that other riders put forth more effort and took more risk? If it was a tire issue, a lot of other riders should've been running the same pace as Lorenzo. He isn't adapting to the wet Michelins, doesn't even appear to be trying.

MdubSTYLIE said:

You are right jumkie I forgot about the 3 times he did well in bad or changing conditions.

Thats an impressive attempt at stoner trolling there jumjum.

Click to expand...

Arrabbiata1 said:

... Further, those three examples are arbitrarily posted - there are actually many more..

Click to expand...

What? Trolling? Me?


Casey Stoner is Ducati's test rider.

Ducati have not won in many years, even with the "GOAT" (no not Simon Piles) riding and developing it for 2 years.

Test riders development motorcycles.

Ducati won a race. And finished runner-up.

Therefore, the TEST development rider, CASEY STONER, deserves credit.

It's simple arithmdick.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

povol said:

This race probably wasnt the best time to say Lorenzo found his balls as he almost always beats Rossi in dry conditions. Yes, the tires have something to do with his wet weather performance, but there is no denying he is suffering mentally when it come s to wet and changing condition racing, he says so himself. When a rider the caliber of Lorenzo is literally limping along in last place because of a damp track, its mental, especially for a rider who has proven in the past he can be competitive in the rain and is riding the best bike on the grid You cant say, oh, the Michelins dont fit his style, as his style and everyone elses is thrown out the window once it rains. No wet tire in the world is going to allow Lorenzo to exploit his riding style. There is no shame in not being the best rain rider, or even top 5, but falling out of the top 10 is inexcusable

Click to expand...

Arrabbiata1 said:

But historically this simply isn't true...

The crash at Assen in 2013 certainly sapped some confidence but the correlation with the prevailing weather relates to a lack of feel on the current Michelin's which owes as much to the design of the carcass as is does the compound in my opinion. Nonetheless, the harder compounds do tend to inhibit his riding style.

Click to expand...

The tires, wet one or dry ones absolutely effect a rider's style, rain or shine.

Lorenzo finished third in a very cold and wet Silverstone. That is to say, even in weather conditions that supposedly he's weak at, he's still fairly competitive. To circulate in last, as you say, is such a stunning change in fortune, to chalk it up to being a headcase, when historical Lorenzo has PROVEN to be mentally strong in adverse conditions, both on and off the track, it's absurd.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

moto vudu said:

So in Assen & Germany do you think every rider except Lorenzo was getting adequate feedback from the front? Could it be possible that other riders put forth more effort and took more risk? If it was a tire issue, a lot of other riders should've been running the same pace as Lorenzo. He isn't adapting to the wet Michelins, doesn't even appear to be trying.

Click to expand...

Oh, so we're back to this .... huh?

You presume to know how much effort or lack thereof Lorenzo puts in based on nothing more than your own belief, all while accusing others of "filling in missing gaps of information".

As Willski would say, "Interesting."

Is it only effort if Lorenzo crashes out trying to ride a bike beyond what he can feel? Would you be satisfied with his effort if he high-sides and breaks his collarbone, or some other part of his body? I'm trying to understand how you, who has never ridden a GP machine, let alone a GP machine at the limit, is somehow qualified enough to say he isn't putting enough effort to your satisfaction in. You've just gone down the exact road your idol, Rossi, went down when he claimed Stoner wasn't trying hard enough on the Desmosedici.

The Michelin front favors those who are heavy on the brakes, which is by no coincidence Rossi, and also Marc Marquez. Lorenzo has never been a heavy braker relative to those two or even a few other riders. Since it requires a bit more load-induced braking to get to the proper operating temperature window for the Michelin's, it would stand to reason that in the rain in particular when coupled with cooler temperatures, it's going to be a very big problem for Lorenzo. The Bridgestones were much easier to get heat into the front tire when compared to the Michelin tires.

Your assertion this has something to do with his effort, will, or drive, is complete ........ that reaches a new low and general lack of understanding for how significant these tires actually are with regard to influence on the actual races.

JPSLotus said:

Oh, so we're back to this .... huh?

You presume to know how much effort or lack thereof Lorenzo puts in based on nothing more than your own belief, all while accusing others of "filling in missing gaps of information".

As Willski would say, "Interesting."

Is it only effort if Lorenzo crashes out trying to ride a bike beyond what he can feel? Would you be satisfied with his effort if he high-sides and breaks his collarbone, or some other part of his body? I'm trying to understand how you, who has never ridden a GP machine, let alone a GP machine at the limit, is somehow qualified enough to say he isn't putting enough effort to your satisfaction in. You've just gone down the exact road your idol, Rossi, went down when he claimed Stoner wasn't trying hard enough on the Desmosedici.

The Michelin front favors those who are heavy on the brakes, which is by no coincidence Rossi, and also Marc Marquez. Lorenzo has never been a heavy braker relative to those two or even a few other riders. Since it requires a bit more load-induced braking to get to the proper operating temperature window for the Michelin's, it would stand to reason that in the rain in particular when coupled with cooler temperatures, it's going to be a very big problem for Lorenzo. The Bridgestones were much easier to get heat into the front tire when compared to the Michelin tires.

Your assertion this has something to do with his effort, will, or drive, is complete ........ that reaches a new low and general lack of understanding for how significant these tires actually are with regard to influence on the actual races.

Click to expand...

Calm down bro. Take some estrogen blockers.

I never stated for a fact that I knew Lorenzo didn't put in much effort. I brought it up as a possibility. Pol & Bradley are on last year's M1 and even they were managing better in the wet compared to Lorenzo. So don't try to make it just about Marquez and Rossi's riding style.

Lorenzo was heavy enough on the brakes to hold off Rossi at Mugello until his engine failed.

I have no idea exactly how hard Lorenzo was trying at Assen or Germany, just like you and Jums were not present in any meeting with Dorna, Michelin, and Rossi discussing "Rossi-spec" tires. Yet, the both of you state Michelin made new "Rossi tires" as if you know it for a fact. Just like yesterday before the race you claimed to know Iannone made the wrong tire choice as a FACT. All ........... which is mostly what this forum is for.

moto vudu said:

I still stand by my statement that wet weather is a weakness for Lorenzo. He is far better in warm, dry conditions. Stating wet weather is a weakness doesn't have to mean he has never won or will never win in the wet, it just means he isn't as likely to do well in the wet as he is in the dry.

Click to expand...

No - you stated that this has always been a weakness which simply isn't true and that is the point that you are missing.

Arrabbiata1 said:

No - you stated that this has always been a weakness which simply isn't true and that is the point that you are missing.

Click to expand...

Fair enough.

moto vudu said:

Calm down bro. Take some estrogen blockers.

I never stated for a fact that I knew Lorenzo didn't put in much effort. I brought it up as a possibility. Pol & Bradley are on last year's M1 and even they were managing better in the wet compared to Lorenzo. So don't try to make it just about Marquez and Rossi's riding style.

Lorenzo was heavy enough on the brakes to hold off Rossi at Mugello until his engine failed.

I have no idea exactly how hard Lorenzo was trying at Assen or Germany, just like you can Jums were not present in any meeting with Dorna, Michelin, and Rossi dicussing "Rossi-spec" tires. Yet, the both of you claim to state Michelin made "Rossi tires" as if you know it for a fact. Just like yesterday before the race you claimed to know Iannone made the wrong tire choice as a FACT. All ........... which is mostly what this forum is for.

Click to expand...

Estrogen blocker? Really Vudu? I responded to a bunch of erroneous points you tried to make in your post. Don't try to get too cute with the question marks, because your real belief is Lorenzo didn't put the effort in. You've said as much in the past, and openly questioning his effort/weakness has been your modus operandi over the past bunch of posts. Don't start trying to move the goal posts when you get called on it.

Rossi and Marquez are essential to this point as they are the two heaviest brakers currently on the grid. Marquez ran away with the race at the Sachsenring when he went to slicks because he was able to get the requisite heat into the front when the conditions were still variable enough to make it a very risky proposition.

Burgess made the comment that the SNS's were made to Rossi's preferences. The tires certainly were of massive benefit to anyone who could ride the hell out of the front. Toni Elias is very heavy on the brakes as a rider, and it's no surprise when he got Pedrosa's cast-offs (which Pedrosa couldn't make work, sound familiar?) he made the most of it.

I would say even to this day, Rossi is the absolute best late braker in GP, and it was true even years back during the previous Michelin era. Their tires have always been designed around a less than ideal front for most riders, while giving a ton of rear grip. The front gives feel if you are willing to try and brake as late as Rossi can, and most can't. So the rest are contingent on trying to get grip from warmer track temperatures, which poses a problem should a rider need to conserve the tire during the race since if you have to conserve, you start losing grip.

Mugello is irrelevant since 1) it was one of the only times I can recall Lorenzo was able to get the setup to brake that late and 2) ambient and track temperatures were high enough to make getting heat into the front far easier; 78 degrees air temperature, 120 degrees track temperature. Makes a world of difference if you're dealing with tires that are tough to heat up when the temperature starts dropping as was the case at Assen, and the Sachsenring. Funny thing, at the time, the Rossi fans insisted Lorenzo wasn't braking that late, and that Rossi could pounce any time he wished.

Funny how you make the estrogen comment, then close out your post to whine about this forum. You have about as much consistency as Rossi had at Ducati. It was a prediction I made, and got wrong. Big deal. I didn't spend endless posts arguing semantics as you just did. I admitted my prediction was wrong. Takes a man to admit being wrong.

Jumkie said:

What? Trolling? Me?


Casey Stoner is Ducati's test rider.

Ducati have not won in many years, even with the "GOAT" (no not Simon Piles) riding and developing it for 2 years.

Test riders development motorcycles.

Ducati won a race. And finished runner-up.

Therefore, the TEST development rider, CASEY STONER, deserves credit.

It's simple arithmdick.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Click to expand...

Well I'm happy to hear has learned from the lesson Honda has taught him then. Ducati offering him a wildcard was a test to see if he learned from his previous tantrums. Up next, greatest coach of all time move over Lombardi.

moto vudu said:

So in Assen & Germany do you think every rider except Lorenzo was getting adequate feedback from the front? Could it be possible that other riders put forth more effort and took more risk? If it was a tire issue, a lot of other riders should've been running the same pace as Lorenzo. He isn't adapting to the wet Michelins, doesn't even appear to be trying.

Click to expand...

In Assen Rossi got so much feedback from his specially made michelintino tyres that it surprised him and he fell off , in Germany his specifically tailored tyres gave him brain fade and caused him to ignore pit signals, this last race Iannone accidentally picked up the sns that Dorna ordered for Vale and came in Vales rightful place . Dorna is making a proper mess of this tenth championship, they will need to do sabotage on Marc and Jorge's bikes for the next few races and hope our forum friends don't notice.