Austrian GP 2016

Jumkie said:

Lorenzo can race in rain.



Lorenzo can race in the cold rain.



Lorenzo can race in hot rain.




He can't race in Rossi-spec tires wilst in the rain. There's a difference.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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Jumkie said:

Well bro, the facts don't support the assertion that Lorenzo is an optimal conditions rider.

This year what may appear as an "optimal conditions" necessity is related to one thing: tires.

The first preseason tests Lorenzo was so far ahead it looked like the season would be lopsided. I remember thinking, ...., Lorenzo should shut up about how easy the fast lap times were coming. One small tweak to the tires and at the PI test the roles were exactly reversed. Rossi who had looked 4th best (or last ) of the top 4 suddenly looked to be Marquezesk. Lorenzo was mired in midpack, what changed?

On a related note, I think Casey Stoner deserves credit for the first Ducati win in a number of years. And i know his detractors will honor him with this much deserved accolade because they know machines are developed by the test riders. They said the last time Ducati came 1-2 was back in 07. In just half a season, Casey Stoner, Ducati test rider, has with his accurate and precise development skills, managed to convert winless machine into a race winning machine. Well done Casey! What better way to show us his testing input has paid off? Sure, he could have taken a wildcard and won on the thing himself; but that's not a test riders job, his job is to make the bike better for the riders being paid to get the results. Mission accomplished!



If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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You are right jumkie I forgot about the 3 times he did well in bad or changing conditions.

Thats an impressive attempt at stoner trolling there jumjum.

moto vudu said:

MotoGP "geniuses" comparing older Lorenzo performances with far more sophisticated custom electronics to 2016 spec ecu and Michelin tires. Is there a racing series that never changes anything? BSB? If there is, maybe you should recommend Lorenzo go race in THAT series. MotoGP is supposed to be prototype racing... the tip of the spear! Bike/tire technology is supposed to be under continuous development. NOTHING is going to stay the same in Grad Prix racing, so what may benefit some riders one year, will not stay the same the next year or the year after. Riders MUST be able to ADAPT or go to a different series where they wont ever need to learn new tires, new electronics, or new bikes (if such a series even exist).

....... ridiculous to accuse MotoGP of slanting the board toward Rossi for switching to a different tire manufacturer, YET at the exact same time CRY that tires that should help Lorenzo win more aren't forced on everyone and kept that way for the remainder of his GP career. Crying about your make-believe conspiracies while begging for the series to be rigged for Lorenzo!

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Actually what people are "crying" about, is that after Lorenzo demolished the field, and said what he did after the Sepang test, the tires took a sudden change in design. This has been done previously in GP; 2012. Kind of sad you don't see anything wrong with this being done. Jumkie never called for tires that favored Lorenzo in that post...you might want to lay off the straw man fallacy there.

JPSLotus said:

Actually what people are "crying" about, is that after Lorenzo demolished the field, and said what he did after the Sepang test, the tires took a sudden change in design. This has been done previously in GP; 2012. Kind of sad you don't see anything wrong with this being done. Jumkie never called for tires that favored Lorenzo in that post...you might want to lay off the straw man fallacy there.

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Lorenzo demolished the field in a test? An unsanctioned test where the bikes don't even go through a tech inspection. Teams could run their bikes in any configuration they want. It was a test JPS, not a qualifying session.

You were under the impression that the tires at the Sepang test were the final version of the tires? No other changes were to be made?

Oh, Lorenzo said he liked the tires and then all of a sudden they changed! Conspiracy! Lorenzo said he liked the older electronics and all of a sudden they changed! Lorenzo said he liked racing at Le Mans and all of a sudden MotoGP moved to a new track! Lorenzo said he liked dry weather and all of a sudden it rained at the next race! Conspiracy! Conspiracy! Conspiracy!

michaelm said:

So Valentino is not a conspiracy theorist, he is just a naughty boy?

And it is OK for you to disdain other posters and their opinions, just not for them to do so to you?

I am sure you find the criticism of Rossi 's behaviour tedious, but that is not the same as it being untrue. No sophistry will change what he alleged in regard to both the PI and Valencia 2015 races to other than allegations of conspiracy either, although what his motives were is more open to speculation, and your speculation as to his motives may well have elements of truth.

I myself have found pretty much every significant rival he has had, for nigh on 20 years now, being demonised rather tedious and am coming to increasingly admire MM for dealing with same as he has.

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You say tomato, I say tomahtoe. This was a blip in Rossi history. You don't see him dredging it up at every conference or blogging about it every other day. He doesn't blame engine failures on MM, or wrong choice of tire on Lorenzo; doesn't blame every little disappointment on somebody else. Listen to his post race interviews and the thing you frequently hear him say is; I didn't think he would be so fast but he was and I couldn't keep up with him. No 3-D Technicolor excuses.

Tisn't that hard for MM to be magnanimous and close-mouthed about his opinions. He's on top of the world at present. He's got a nice cushion between him and the trials and tribulations of the rest of the paddock.

I too find much of Rossi's behavior childish and petulant, especially in man his age. Bare in mind there's plenty of bad behavior to go around and stupid statements from riders all down the grid, but Rossi, who's always been a bit of an ....... to my way of thinking, garners the most attention because he's always been charismatic and plays to the camera and the press have played their part in creating this monster. He's always craved attention and he still gets it, good or bad.

Disdain for other posters? This bares mentioning? Disdain for other posters is the foundation on which this forum is built. Why else do clearly intelligent people spend endless hours debating trivial minutia with apparent morons whose opinions they clearly don't respect? Because it confirms their intellectual superiority over the bopper philistines; so they can get in their daily share of patting themselves on the back. You do it too, but you couch your disdain with plummy, erudite language grammar common to Oxford dons. Your disdain is an iron fist in a velvet glove. Like shooting fish in a barrel for you. The main difference between you and the majority of the fishing crew, is that you don't resort to calling people ..... when confronted with a superior argument.

Little Walter said:

What guys might those be? And whose boy is mine? I am not aligned with any particular group or rider. Or perhaps you believe I am conspiring with t the few people who "liked" my post. While it is undeniable that Dorna have manipulated tire changes, there's no hard evidence to bare out the theory that all changes were made for the sake of Rossi. And it's not just tire issues. According to the Powerslide think tank, everything that causes disadvantage to any other rider is de facto done at the behest of Rossi. Undoubtedly he is favored, but no rational person believes this to the extent of a handful here who are always foaming at the mouth every time Rossi scratches his balls the wrong way. It's like listening to holy rollers who always say, "There are no coincidences."

Do you honestly believe that Dorna wanted Kawasaki and Suzuki out of the way? No, of course not. They just weren't committed enough at the time to spend the money to keep up with the changes.

As to their "actual arguments", they've been countered by level-headed (and some not so level-headed) people here, who have, for their trouble, have been abused with insults, demonized for confronting enormous holes in said theories and had far too much ad hominem sidestepping slopped upon them in lieu of real dialog. I have not seen or heard anything new on that front that would tempt me to jump into the cesspit of revisiting the same old arguments in which few if any ever give an inch when confronted by contra arguments that are equally compelling.

With regard to Rossi's "conspiracy", I don't think you can call it that. It was just the ranting of an old guy who wants the Mexicans to get off his lawn. If Dorna with all their money and influence are truly conspiring to put Uncle Vale up for another championship, they sure are doing a lousy job of it.

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GP has long been slanted in Rossi's favor. It's been discussed numerous times about the advantages he received at HRC, which saw his final season with the team turn into a decisive second half advantage when HRC was willing to give Gibernau inferior equipment as a way to try and appease him into staying for 2004.

The GP tire situation has long been a problem as Michelin were manufacturing Rossi-centric tires with the SNS. Since no one was able to get SNS tires made to their spec other than Rossi, the tires were worthless for plenty of riders as their riding styles didn't allow for them to activate the tires so they could work ideally. Toni Elias was the one rider who made them work when he was fortunate enough to get his hands on them.

It's a fact that in the wake of the successful Ducati campaign in 2007, Rossi was agitating to get his own supply of Bridgestone tires by the midpoint of that season, for 2008. He went as far to threaten to Carmelo/Dorna that he would quit MotoGP if he were not given a supply. Carmelo brokered a special deal that allowed only Rossi --not both Yamaha riders-- to use Bridgestone tires specially for 2008. Nothing like that has ever been done in any motorsport to my recollection, where on vehicle was shod with one manufacturer's tires, and the other had to use the other manufacturer. Bridgestone had no desire to supply Rossi at all as they were more than content with supplying the teams that they were supplying. This is purely conjecture on my part, but I believe part of that deal was the promise Bridgestone would be made sole tire supplier from 2009 onward as a quid pro quo for helping out with supplying Rossi.

Since there are only a couple of riders who were around to experience the Michelin tires of 2006, the newer crop of riders have no comparison point. But Rossi made the comment the Michelin's rode the way he remembered. Stoner commented that much like back then the rear is strong, while the front is not. The general design characteristics of the tires has not changed much. If it were not for Rossi's COTA crash, Mugello engine failure, and mistake at Assen, Rossi would be either leading the championship standings, or would be in P2 at worst. Dorna/Michelin have done their job quite well. It's up to Rossi to turn it into results.

JPSLotus said:

GP has long been slanted in Rossi's favor. It's been discussed numerous times about the advantages he received at HRC, which saw his final season with the team turn into a decisive second half advantage when HRC was willing to give Gibernau inferior equipment as a way to try and appease him into staying for 2004.

The GP tire situation has long been a problem as Michelin were manufacturing Rossi-centric tires with the SNS. Since no one was able to get SNS tires made to their spec other than Rossi, the tires were worthless for plenty of riders as their riding styles didn't allow for them to activate the tires so they could work ideally. Toni Elias was the one rider who made them work when he was fortunate enough to get his hands on them.

It's a fact that in the wake of the successful Ducati campaign in 2007, Rossi was agitating to get his own supply of Bridgestone tires by the midpoint of that season, for 2008. He went as far to threaten to Carmelo/Dorna that he would quit MotoGP if he were not given a supply. Carmelo brokered a special deal that allowed only Rossi --not both Yamaha riders-- to use Bridgestone tires specially for 2008. Nothing like that has ever been done in any motorsport to my recollection, where on vehicle was shod with one manufacturer's tires, and the other had to use the other manufacturer. Bridgestone had no desire to supply Rossi at all as they were more than content with supplying the teams that they were supplying. This is purely conjecture on my part, but I believe part of that deal was the promise Bridgestone would be made sole tire supplier from 2009 onward as a quid pro quo for helping out with supplying Rossi.

Since there are only a couple of riders who were around to experience the Michelin tires of 2006, the newer crop of riders have no comparison point. But Rossi made the comment the Michelin's rode the way he remembered. Stoner commented that much like back then the rear is strong, while the front is not. The general design characteristics of the tires has not changed much. If it were not for Rossi's COTA crash, Mugello engine failure, and mistake at Assen, Rossi would be either leading the championship standings, or would be in P2 at worst. Dorna/Michelin have done their job quite well. It's up to Rossi to turn it into results.

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Rossi led the championship last year and finished P2... on BRIDGESTONES.

moto vudu said:

Lorenzo demolished the field in a test? An unsanctioned test where the bikes don't even go through a tech inspection. Teams could run their bikes in any configuration they want. It was a test JPS, not a qualifying session.

You were under the impression that the tires at the Sepang test were the final version of the tires? No other changes were to be made?

Oh, Lorenzo said he liked the tires and then all of a sudden they changed! Conspiracy! Lorenzo said he liked the older electronics and all of a sudden they changed! Lorenzo said he liked racing at Le Mans and all of a sudden MotoGP moved to a new track! Lorenzo said he liked dry weather and all of a sudden it rained at the next race! Conspiracy! Conspiracy! Conspiracy!

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Vudu, the Sepang test was actually a pretty accurate representation of where all of the bikes stand even today.

Tires were changed in 2012 when Stoner looked set to run away with the title based on pre-season testing. Pull your head out of your ... already.

moto vudu said:

Rossi led the championship last year and finished P2... on BRIDGESTONES.

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So?

What Bridgestone compound was he most successful on last year?

Jumkie said:

I'm not sure when Lorenzo became an "optimal conditions" racer bro, oh wait, I do, when Dorna introduced the Michelintino tires.

There have been plenty of cold & wet races Lorenzo has performed well, won & podiumed. The dramatic change is so dramatic that it begs the question, what's changed?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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This race probably wasnt the best time to say Lorenzo found his balls as he almost always beats Rossi in dry conditions. Yes, the tires have something to do with his wet weather performance, but there is no denying he is suffering mentally when it come s to wet and changing condition racing, he says so himself. When a rider the caliber of Lorenzo is literally limping along in last place because of a damp track, its mental, especially for a rider who has proven in the past he can be competitive in the rain and is riding the best bike on the grid You cant say, oh, the Michelins dont fit his style, as his style and everyone elses is thrown out the window once it rains. No wet tire in the world is going to allow Lorenzo to exploit his riding style. There is no shame in not being the best rain rider, or even top 5, but falling out of the top 10 is inexcusable

JPSLotus said:

Vudu, the Sepang test was actually a pretty accurate representation of where all of the bikes stand even today.

Tires were changed in 2012 when Stoner looked set to run away with the title based on pre-season testing. Pull your head out of your ... already.

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JPSLotus said:

So?

What Bridgestone compound was he most successful on last year?

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See, you don't know a lot of things so you attempt to fill in missing gaps of information with conspiracy theories. You do not know what stage of development the tires were in at the Sepang test. You also don't know exactly what had to be modified to construction and maybe even compounds after the tire blowouts. Lorenzo has won on the new Michelins! His issues really began when the weather changed and that has always been a weak area for him.

moto vudu said:

Lorenzo has won on the new Michelins! His issues really began when the weather changed and that has always been a weak area for him.

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But historically this simply isn't true as many have attempted to illustrate to you.

The crash at Assen in 2013 certainly sapped some confidence but the correlation with the prevailing weather relates to a lack of feel on the current Michelin's which owes as much to the design of the carcass as is does the compound in my opinion. Nonetheless, the harder compounds do tend to inhibit his riding style.

'you don't know a lot of things so you attempt to fill in missing gaps of information with conspiracy theories'.

I would urge you to revisit your posts from the recent Assen and Sachsenring race threads in which you presume to understand the inner workings of Lorenzo's psychology.

Arrabbiata1 said:

But historically this simply isn't true as many have attempted to illustrate to you.

The crash at Assen in 2013 certainly sapped some confidence but the correlation with the prevailing weather relates to a lack of feel on the current Michelin's which owes as much to the design of the carcass as is does the compound in my opinion. Nonetheless, the harder compounds do tend to inhibit his riding style.

'you don't know a lot of things so you attempt to fill in missing gaps of information with conspiracy theories'.

I would urge you to revisit your posts from the recent Assen and Sachsenring race threads in which you presume to understand the inner workings of Lorenzo's psychology.

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3 examples of Lorenzo doing well in the wet were shared. That's not enough to say it's false that wet weather is a weakness for Lorenzo. It's likely a combination of him losing confidence in the wet after breaking his collarbone at Assen plus new tires that he doesn't have much experience with. That doesn't mean the tires were specifically designed to hurt him or benefit one rider in particular. Rossi hasn't even won a wet race on the new Michelins.

moto vudu said:

See, you don't know a lot of things so you attempt to fill in missing gaps of information with conspiracy theories. You do not know what stage of development the tires were in at the Sepang test. You also don't know exactly what had to be modified to construction and maybe even compounds after the tire blowouts. Lorenzo has won on the new Michelins! His issues really began when the weather changed and that has always been a weak area for him.

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The trouble with yourself and your sidekicks is that when you don't like hearing something, you label it as a conspiracy theory in an effort to try and discredit the person right off the bat. Your above post is more of this drivel.

I have never said anything about Lorenzo winning or not winning on the Michelin tires as that has never been central to the main point that Lorenzo has never spoken favorably about the tires again the way he did at the Sepang test.

I was on record months ago saying the Michelin front tire was dangerous, and a number of posters scoffed at the notion that the tire was dangerous. Meanwhile, in 2012, when the front tire feel favored Casey Stoner, there was quick rush to rectify the front tire situation. Safety was invoked as was the majority support of riders. Rossi admitted later on he had voted for the wrong tire. But this gets glossed over as usual.

Hiroshi Yamada - Manager, Bridgestone Motorsport Department:
"Last year we set out with a clear set of technical objectives for our 2012 specification tyres and since they were first tested, we received very good feedback on our path of development. Though rider comments on our original 2012 specification front tyre were positive, we haven’t rested on our laurels and brought new specification front tyres to the pre-season tests as part of our ongoing tyre development programme. One of these new front tyres was met with such an encouraging appraisal from the riders that we proposed to make it available as soon as possible. Due to logistical constraints, we are unable to supply a full allocation of this new specification front tyre until Silverstone, but we have changed our production schedule and made every effort to provide a limited allocation of the new front tyre to riders from the next race.

"I would like to thank all the riders and teams for their commitment to evaluating during pre-season testing and also Safety Advisor to Dorna Loris Capirossi for his ongoing efforts in collating feedback from the riders. I look forward to Jerez with great interest as not only will riders be using our latest specification front tyre in a race setting for the first time, they will also be showcasing the very latest in Bridgestone tyre technology to the world."

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Carmelo Ezpeleta – CEO, Dorna Sports:
"Dorna is pleased that Bridgestone will make their new specification front tyre available to riders from the second round of the season at Jerez. During the regular meetings during pre-season testing between Bridgestone and Safety Advisor to Dorna Loris Capirossi, it became apparent that this new specification tyre provided even greater levels of front-end feel to the riders and so we welcome the decision to make the tyre available as soon as possible.

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In 2016, with riders crashing out heavily due to the Michelin front, there was no intervention by DORNA or reputed "safety advisor" Loris Capirossi to rectify the situation. The only rider who had anything positive to say about the front was Rossi. Therefore, the tire situation was deemed to be ACCEPTABLE! And to no surprise, many of the posters here who like to throw around buzzwords like "conspiracy theory" or other cute words, had nothing to say about the tires being a problem. Deep down inside, a number of posters relish the idea of tires being designed around the biases of one rider first because they support this rider. Not a sole one of them has ever called out the 2007/2008 Rossi/Bridgestone debacle for what it was. Instead it is glossed over and rationalized as being a trivial, overblown matter.

moto vudu said:

3 examples of Lorenzo doing well in the wet were shared. That's not enough to say it's false that wet weather is a weakness for Lorenzo. It's likely a combination of him losing confidence in the wet after breaking his leg at Assen plus new tires that he doesn't have much experience with. That doesn't mean the tires were specifically designed to hurt him or benefit one rider in particular. Rossi hasn't even won a wet race on the new Michelins.

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'That's not enough to say it's false that wet weather is a weakness for Lorenzo.'

But that's not what you said is it?

At no point did I mention Rossi. Further, those three examples are arbitrarily posted - there are actually many more. I'm referring to watching him since his debut in 2002 in the 125cc class. I concede, what is relevant to this debate is the current formula but your contention that the changing weather has 'always been a weak area for him' is as ill informed as it is fallacious. Incidentally, Lorenzo broke his collarbone at Assen.

I would also point out that Rossi hasn't won a wet race on the new Michelin's because he made a mistake and crashed out at Assen.

JPSLotus said:

The trouble with yourself and your sidekicks is that when you don't like hearing something, you label it as a conspiracy theory in an effort to try and discredit the person right off the bat. Your above post is more of this drivel.

I have never said anything about Lorenzo winning or not winning on the Michelin tires as that has never been central to the main point that Lorenzo has never spoken favorably about the tires again the way he did at the Sepang test.

I was on record months ago saying the Michelin front tire was dangerous, and a number of posters scoffed at the notion that the tire was dangerous. Meanwhile, in 2012, when the front tire feel favored Casey Stoner, there was quick rush to rectify the front tire situation. Safety was invoked as was the majority support of riders. Rossi admitted later on he had voted for the wrong tire. But this gets glossed over as usual.





In 2016, with riders crashing out heavily due to the Michelin front, there was no intervention by DORNA or reputed "safety advisor" Loris Capirossi to rectify the situation. The only rider who had anything positive to say about the front was Rossi. Therefore, the tire situation was deemed to be ACCEPTABLE! And to no surprise, many of the posters here who like to throw around buzzwords like "conspiracy theory" or other cute words, had nothing to say about the tires being a problem. Deep down inside, a number of posters relish the idea of tires being designed around the biases of one rider first because they support this rider. Not a sole one of them has ever called out the 2007/2008 Rossi/Bridgestone debacle for what it was. Instead it is glossed over and rationalized as being a trivial, overblown matter.

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Are you tracking the number of front end crashes this year in compared to last year? The Michelin front is something the riders have to adapt to, part of the learning process will involve crashing while the riders find the limit. After Rossi lost the front at COTA, he said the margin for error with the tires is very small. You either get it right or you lose the front. What's wrong with that? Dani is probably the one having the hardest time, but he's also a midget. Riders are adapting to the Michelins.

moto vudu said:

Are you tracking the number of front end crashes this year in compared to last year? The Michelin front is something the riders have to adapt to, part of the learning process will involve crashing while the riders find the limit. After Rossi lost the front at COTA, he said the margin for error with the tires is very small. You either get it right or you lose the front. What's wrong with that? Dani is probably the one having the hardest time, but he's also a midget. Riders are adapting to the Michelins.

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Rossi said:

“In that corner I entered with the same speed, there are two bumps, and maybe I was more inside, maybe I lost concentration, maybe I wanted more, and I lost the front.”

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He was never sure why the crash happened, only that it happened.

But you do prove my point, that in 2012 the riders could have adapted to the Bridgestone front. Yet safety was invoked by Bridgestone, Dorna/Ezepelta, and Capirossi. The tire design was changed when it was obvious Stoner liked the tire construction, and was in great position to run away with the world title. This goes back to my contention that there is blatant hypocrisy regarding tires around here. I have never seen you or a number of other Rossi fans/pro-Rossi people, to my knowledge ever call out the 2012 situation for what it really was; a concerted effort to remove the reigning world champion's preferences. Something which I might add, was never done to Rossi in all of his defending championship years. The one year when Michelin got caught napping with their own design efforts (2007) heaven and Earth was moved to get Rossi onto the Bridgestones. When Ducati wanted to switch to Michelin for 2009, they were denied.

Arrabbiata1 said:

'That's not enough to say it's false that wet weather is a weakness for Lorenzo.'

But that's not what you said is it?

At no point did I mention Rossi. Further, those three examples are arbitrarily posted - there are actually many more. I'm referring to watching him since his debut in 2002 in the 125cc class. I concede, what is relevant to this debate is the current formula but your contention that the changing weather has 'always been a weak area for him' is as ill informed as it is fallacious. Incidentally, Lorenzo broke his collarbone at Assen.

I would also point out that Rossi hasn't won a wet race on the new Michelin's because he made a mistake and crashed out at Assen.

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We have watched Lorenzo struggle for podiums in the wet for the last few seasons. Going back to his '02 debut or 125cc era doesn't change anything. You might find examples of Rossi kicking ... on soft tires 10+ years ago.

Rossi's mistake and crash at Assen was related to him learning the new Michelins! The soft/wet rear provided more grip than he expected and he failed to adjust his braking points. Tough time to learn that lesson, but he learned it. Tires were not to blame, it was all human error. Rossi at least pushed the limit and improved because of it. Lorenzo didn't learn anything, but to ride in the back and hope enough riders crash to put him in the points.

Little Walter said:

You say tomato, I say tomahtoe. This was a blip in Rossi history. You don't see him dredging it up at every conference or blogging about it every other day. He doesn't blame engine failures on MM, or wrong choice of tire on Lorenzo; doesn't blame every little disappointment on somebody else. Listen to his post race interviews and the thing you frequently hear him say is; I didn't think he would be so fast but he was and I couldn't keep up with him. No 3-D Technicolor excuses.

Tisn't that hard for MM to be magnanimous and close-mouthed about his opinions. He's on top of the world at present. He's got a nice cushion between him and the trials and tribulations of the rest of the paddock.

I too find much of Rossi's behavior childish and petulant, especially in man his age. Bare in mind there's plenty of bad behavior to go around and stupid statements from riders all down the grid, but Rossi, who's always been a bit of an ....... to my way of thinking, garners the most attention because he's always been charismatic and plays to the camera and the press have played their part in creating this monster. He's always craved attention and he still gets it, good or bad.

Disdain for other posters? This bares mentioning? Disdain for other posters is the foundation on which this forum is built. Why else do clearly intelligent people spend endless hours debating trivial minutia with apparent morons whose opinions they clearly don't respect? Because it confirms their intellectual superiority over the bopper philistines; so they can get in their daily share of patting themselves on the back. You do it too, but you couch your disdain with plummy, erudite language grammar common to Oxford dons. Your disdain is an iron fist in a velvet glove. Like shooting fish in a barrel for you. The main difference between you and the majority of the fishing crew, is that you don't resort to calling people ..... when confronted with a superior argument.

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I am all for equal opportunity where snarkiness is concerned. You can be as snarky as you want as far as I am concerned, as can everyone else. Only in my opinion of course, you were tending towards being self righteously snarky earlier in the thread hence my entering the fray.

I give Rossi full credit for all his titles, and as I said then and now had no problem with him getting the Bridgestones in 2008, only with the variety of that tyre which particularly suited Ducati apparently being removed, which it seems increasingly likely now was actually the case. I have always disagreed with the control tyre, and as I have also repeatedly said think Lorenzo and Rossi should each be able to have a tyre which suits them, just as I along with Mr Nakamoto could see no reason with the tyre change in 2012 why both the old and new tyre could not continue to be supplied, particularly since that change was made mid-season.

I think the continual Dorna mandated tyre changes over the last decade have been disastrous for the sport for reasons I have given previously. Dorna have doubtless had multiple motivations, but imo disadvantaging unpopular riders cannot be dismissed as being at least a welcome corollary consequence on occasion. Also imo Dorna have frequently been inept, so that them not succeeding in aiding Rossi to a title is hardly evidence that they have not tried to do so, rather not providing evidence either way imo. They have certainly been spectacularly unsuccessful in their stated aim of cost reduction, which having to continually re-design bikes to suit tyres was never likely to accomplish.

There has been one very deliberate tyre rule change which very much disadvantaged Rossi and helped those equipped with Bridgestones, the abolition of the control tyre, but that was doubtless an unintended consequence as was the control tyre screwing Kawasaki and Suzuki; I am not so sure in regard to Ducati and Honda when Stoner was riding for those marques.

Arrabbi and Jumkie have proved that sometimes he can ride in the wet. But even in the wet things have to be perfect for him to do well. I do understand that he dislikes these tires more than most of us dislike a former member around here but I still think overall hes been a poor wet rider. Has he ever done well in a changing conditions race?

moto vudu said:

We have watched Lorenzo struggle for podiums in the wet for the last few seasons. Going back to his '02 debut or 125cc era doesn't change anything.

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In which case, you shouldn't have said this then should you?...

moto vudu said:

His issues really began when the weather changed and that has always been a weak area for him.

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...because it is utterly incorrect.

moto vudu said:

Rossi's mistake and crash at Assen was related to him learning the new Michelins! The soft/wet rear provided more grip than he expected and he failed to adjust his braking points. Tough time to learn that lesson, but he learned it. Tires were not to blame, it was all human error. .

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I never suggested that 'tyres were to blame'. Moreover, your statement that 'Rossi hasn't even won a wet race on the new Michelins' was simply met by my response that this is because he crashed out of the Assen race. As you say yourself , 'it was all human error' which was precisely my point, otherwise contrary to your statement, he would have won a race on the wet Michelin's. Although you also partially attributed this to learning the new wets...

moto vudu said:

Rossi's mistake and crash at Assen was related to him learning the new Michelins! The soft/wet rear provided more grip than he expected and he failed to adjust his braking points. .

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That's not what he said..perhaps it's what you inferred again?

"I did a mistake, I was too fast, I pushed too hard, it was too much."

"Because I could open the throttle earlier [than in the first part of the race], I arrived to Turn 10 and braked in the same point but I arrived 4-5km/h faster and I lost the front.

"It was a stupid mistake unfortunately and I'm very sorry for all the team, for me and for all the guys because today we could win because we had an advantage compared to the others."

"During the weekend, during all the practices, I was always very precise in riding style and I never made a mistake"

"All the other guys made a mistake, crashed and everything."

"Unfortunately I made the mistake in the important moment."

"When it passed to the second lap, I saw 1m49.3s [lap time], so I said 'I want to push another lap to take advantage and afterwards try to control the situation' but unfortunately the mistake was that I pushed too hard."

moto vudu said:

Rossi at least pushed the limit and improved because of it. Lorenzo didn't learn anything, but to ride in the back and hope enough riders crash to put him in the points.

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Reminds me of the 2011 - 2012 Ducati years.

Whatever, as per usually you are virtually incapable of posting on this forum without mentioning Valentino Rossi. I never mentioned Vale. My post purely challenged your ridiculous statement that changeable weather has always been an issue for Lorenzo, which is complete nonsense and utterly untrue..