Australian GP RACE

Keshav · Oct 22, 2010

What... are yer daft? Twer me what saaid yer looked like Kenny Powers.

Bunyip · Oct 22, 2010

chopperman said:
Yeah funny post bunny

but whats your real stance on that pass ?

Somebody wake me up, or extract me from that parallel universe.........................you actually want my opinion!

(I always wondered what happened to Roger; when he was replaced by the chopperman.

Did the chopperman chop him all up and eat him??

Perhaps that explains the new personality?

Should I call you Roger (in memory of the exising entity), or maybe Chops, thus recognizing the reality of the new entity??

......................anyway, enough random mutterings..............to the question..........

I,m confused.

I was all in agreement with Jumkie, until I watched the Sachsenring race again...........and I saw a pass by Casey on VR on the last lap that was not too disimilar to the Rossi pass on Hayden. And as Casey can do nothing wrong on track (

), in the spirit of consistency, I would find it difficult to be too critical of Rossi's pass.

However, I do agree with Jumkies assertation (in volume 3, chapter 1), that when you look at the big picture, Valentino is certainly over-represented in the hard-pass stakes. I think that this is because he takes the competitive nature of the sport to a higher ( or lower!) level. Like Jumkie and others, I see a degree of desperation in those passes , not exhibited by other riders. Is it his higher skill level ( as Jrno insists), or just a greater degree of desperation. Probably it is a combination of both. Is it acceptable behaviour? Mostly yes, but on several occasions, definately no. The famous Gibernau pass was for me , unfair. It reminds me of Simoncellis passes- too reckless- punting the adversary off track. Also the famous corkscrew pass was dangerous, but to be fair, it was a mistake by Rossi. To me, Rossi's "crime " in that "pass" was to glamourize it as heroic, rather than admitting that it was a stuff-up with a favourable outcome, largely due to Caseys skill at avoiding the out of control VR and barely staying on track. Caseys post-race anger was largely due to the fact that he was inches away from being pushed right off track

800cc racing is less exciting, becuase each bike seems to have a narrow performance window- ie , it can be ridden more comfortably at say 95% than previous , less electronically-assisted generations of bike, BUT the ability to pull out that extra 5% to catch or pass an opponent is far more difficult. Hence fewer passes and less exciting racing. So perhaps harder passes should be encouraged???

Ultimately, the big issue is rider safety. It is already a highly dangerous sport without introducing some sort of roller-derby aspect to it. The grid is shrinking due to injuries. We hardly want more injuries.Perhaps the answer is a riders forum on what they perceive to be acceptable or not, after all, its their bodies on the line. Is a pass resulting in being shunted 1/2 way across track acceptable, 3/4 way?, leave 1metre of track? The problem is though, if you make the margins of safety small, then a small error can result in disaster. All that matters is consistency, because as it stands now, it seems that Rossi is allowed more latitude in his passes than other riders, and that is why all the non-boppers get upset.

In summary- get rider concensus on what is acceptable or not ( Does this already exist?) , and get Dorna(?) to regulate disputes over track incidents, including passes, and penalise the riders appropriately (-5 pts per offence?).

And apply the new rules impartially ( ie. No Rossi exemption clause)

We need to add as much excitement and overtaking as possible, as long as rider safety is not compromised.

I love the tight battles as much as anybody- lets just not make it into "last man standing"

Talpa · Oct 23, 2010

Bunyip said:
Somebody wake me up, or extract me from that parallel universe.........................you actually want my opinion!

(I always wondered what happened to Roger; when he was replaced by the chopperman.

Did the chopperman chop him all up and eat him??

Perhaps that explains the new personality?

Should I call you Roger (in memory of the exising entity), or maybe Chops, thus recognizing the reality of the new entity??

......................anyway, enough random mutterings..............to the question..........

I,m confused.

I was all in agreement with Jumkie, until I watched the Sachsenring race again...........and I saw a pass by Casey on VR on the last lap that was not too disimilar to the Rossi pass on Hayden. And as Casey can do nothing wrong on track (

), in the spirit of consistency, I would find it difficult to be too critical of Rossi's pass.

However, I do agree with Jumkies assertation (in volume 3, chapter 1), that when you look at the big picture, Valentino is certainly over-represented in the hard-pass stakes. I think that this is because he takes the competitive nature of the sport to a higher ( or lower!) level. Like Jumkie and others, I see a degree of desperation in those passes , not exhibited by other riders. Is it his higher skill level ( as Jrno insists), or just a greater degree of desperation. Probably it is a combination of both. Is it acceptable behaviour? Mostly yes, but on several occasions, definately no. The famous Gibernau pass was for me , unfair. It reminds me of Simoncellis passes- too reckless- punting the adversary off track. Also the famous corkscrew pass was dangerous, but to be fair, it was a mistake by Rossi. To me, Rossi's "crime " in that "pass" was to glamourize it as heroic, rather than admitting that it was a stuff-up with a favourable outcome, largely due to Caseys skill at avoiding the out of control VR and barely staying on track. Caseys post-race anger was largely due to the fact that he was inches away from being pushed right off track

800cc racing is less exciting, becuase each bike seems to have a narrow performance window- ie , it can be ridden more comfortably at say 95% than previous , less electronically-assisted generations of bike, BUT the ability to pull out that extra 5% to catch or pass an opponent is far more difficult. Hence fewer passes and less exciting racing. So perhaps harder passes should be encouraged???

Ultimately, the big issue is rider safety. It is already a highly dangerous sport without introducing some sort of roller-derby aspect to it. The grid is shrinking due to injuries. We hardly want more injuries.Perhaps the answer is a riders forum on what they perceive to be acceptable or not, after all, its their bodies on the line. Is a pass resulting in being shunted 1/2 way across track acceptable, 3/4 way?, leave 1metre of track? The problem is though, if you make the margins of safety small, then a small error can result in disaster. All that matters is consistency, because as it stands now, it seems that Rossi is allowed more latitude in his passes than other riders, and that is why all the non-boppers get upset.

In summary- get rider concensus on what is acceptable or not ( Does this already exist?) , and get Dorna(?) to regulate disputes over track incidents, including passes, and penalise the riders appropriately (-5 pts per offence?).

And apply the new rules impartially ( ie. No Rossi exemption clause)

We need to add as much excitement and overtaking as possible, as long as rider safety is not compromised.

I love the tight battles as much as anybody- lets just not make it into "last man standing"

Well said-mostly.........Don't forget how dangerous Casey's move up the hill around the outside was, which certainly aided in the off line nature of Rossi's infamous corkscrew adventure

I would imagine it a little difficult to get the riders to put forward their ideals and have it gospel on the issues of safe passing-if this is ever even completely possible, for the riders views seem to vary as much as ours!

And we know PS members couldn't agree on which way the breeze was blowing whilst standing in front of a wind sock.........

And getting Dorna to set a new set of regulations with their track record of late, is like like letting Julia give Garrett another 2 billion to spend on insulation!!

The sport is probably as safe as its ever been, and too much legislation on riders on track behavior may just choke it altogether.......they don't seem to have too many problems in WSBK.........with ALOT more consistent passing like PI last week.

michaelm · Oct 23, 2010

Talpa said:
Well said-mostly.........Don't forget how dangerous Casey's move up the hill around the outside was, which certainly aided in the off line nature of Rossi's infamous corkscrew adventure

I would imagine it a little difficult to get the riders to put forward their ideals and have it gospel on the issues of safe passing-if this is ever even completely possible, for the riders views seem to vary as much as ours!

And we know PS members couldn't agree on which way the breeze was blowing whilst standing in front of a wind sock.........

And getting Dorna to set a new set of regulations with their track record of late, is like like letting Julia give Garrett another 2 billion to spend on insulation!!

The sport is probably as safe as its ever been, and too much legislation on riders on track behavior may just choke it altogether.......they don't seem to have too many problems in WSBK.........with ALOT more consistent passing like PI last week.

I basically also agree with most of bunyip's points, and with most of yours

With regard to bunyip's post as I have argued previously I think it is salient that few if any of rossi's "hard" passes have resulted in crashes let alone injuries, admittedly perhaps not through any action by rossi in regard to the gibernau pass and the corkscrew affair, although he may well have crashed taking both riders down once he got off-line at the corkscrew if he had proceeded differently. Any crashes he has caused have usually been early in a race on cold tyres rather than in attempting hard passes.

I think most have eventually agreed the corkscrew thing was a racing incident; however whilst it is true they rode closely on the lead-up to the corkscrew "adventure" ( a good word for it btw) who was taking whose line is imo a moot point, as rossi moved right over on stoner when he was in front and on the verge of the track in the corner at the start of the slow motion sequence posted by someone when we last discussed the matter in earnest , and again imo ( admittedly biased etc etc) stoner still had the inside line going in.

Bunyip · Oct 23, 2010

Talpa said:
Well said-mostly.........Don't forget how dangerous Casey's move up the hill around the outside was, which certainly aided in the off line nature of Rossi's infamous corkscrew adventure

I would imagine it a little difficult to get the riders to put forward their ideals and have it gospel on the issues of safe passing-if this is ever even completely possible, for the riders views seem to vary as much as ours!

And we know PS members couldn't agree on which way the breeze was blowing whilst standing in front of a wind sock.........

And getting Dorna to set a new set of regulations with their track record of late, is like like letting Julia give Garrett another 2 billion to spend on insulation!!

The sport is probably as safe as its ever been, and too much legislation on riders on track behavior may just choke it altogether.......they don't seem to have too many problems in WSBK.........with ALOT more consistent passing like PI last week.

Surely, the one at risk is the rider on the outside.......that was a ballsy pass with the only risk to himself.

Keshav · Oct 23, 2010

Bunyip said:
Somebody wake me up, or extract me from that parallel universe.........................you actually want my opinion!

(I always wondered what happened to Roger; when he was replaced by the chopperman.

Did the chopperman chop him all up and eat him??

Perhaps that explains the new personality?

Should I call you Roger (in memory of the exising entity), or maybe Chops, thus recognizing the reality of the new entity??

......................anyway, enough random mutterings..............to the question..........

I,m confused.

I was all in agreement with Jumkie, until I watched the Sachsenring race again...........and I saw a pass by Casey on VR on the last lap that was not too disimilar to the Rossi pass on Hayden. And as Casey can do nothing wrong on track (

), in the spirit of consistency, I would find it difficult to be too critical of Rossi's pass.

However, I do agree with Jumkies assertation (in volume 3, chapter 1), that when you look at the big picture, Valentino is certainly over-represented in the hard-pass stakes. I think that this is because he takes the competitive nature of the sport to a higher ( or lower!) level. Like Jumkie and others, I see a degree of desperation in those passes , not exhibited by other riders. Is it his higher skill level ( as Jrno insists), or just a greater degree of desperation. Probably it is a combination of both. Is it acceptable behaviour? Mostly yes, but on several occasions, definately no. The famous Gibernau pass was for me , unfair. It reminds me of Simoncellis passes- too reckless- punting the adversary off track. Also the famous corkscrew pass was dangerous, but to be fair, it was a mistake by Rossi. To me, Rossi's "crime " in that "pass" was to glamourize it as heroic, rather than admitting that it was a stuff-up with a favourable outcome, largely due to Caseys skill at avoiding the out of control VR and barely staying on track. Caseys post-race anger was largely due to the fact that he was inches away from being pushed right off track

800cc racing is less exciting, becuase each bike seems to have a narrow performance window- ie , it can be ridden more comfortably at say 95% than previous , less electronically-assisted generations of bike, BUT the ability to pull out that extra 5% to catch or pass an opponent is far more difficult. Hence fewer passes and less exciting racing. So perhaps harder passes should be encouraged???

Ultimately, the big issue is rider safety. It is already a highly dangerous sport without introducing some sort of roller-derby aspect to it. The grid is shrinking due to injuries. We hardly want more injuries.Perhaps the answer is a riders forum on what they perceive to be acceptable or not, after all, its their bodies on the line. Is a pass resulting in being shunted 1/2 way across track acceptable, 3/4 way?, leave 1metre of track? The problem is though, if you make the margins of safety small, then a small error can result in disaster. All that matters is consistency, because as it stands now, it seems that Rossi is allowed more latitude in his passes than other riders, and that is why all the non-boppers get upset.

In summary- get rider concensus on what is acceptable or not ( Does this already exist?) , and get Dorna(?) to regulate disputes over track incidents, including passes, and penalise the riders appropriately (-5 pts per offence?).

And apply the new rules impartially ( ie. No Rossi exemption clause)

We need to add as much excitement and overtaking as possible, as long as rider safety is not compromised.

I love the tight battles as much as anybody- lets just not make it into "last man standing"

Great Post! Some have said it's okay because (other than the footpeg through the foot incident) because Rossi (and Simoncelli) hasn't killed or maimed anyone - but I still believe in the concept of accepted track "etiquette" (a gay word to be sure) that 90% of other riders are willing to adhere to. I don't agree that others don't do it more frequently - simply because they're "not talented enough". Such an assertion is either ignorant or disengenuous.

michaelm · Oct 23, 2010

Bunyip said:
Surely, the one at risk is the rider on the outside.......that was a ballsy pass with the only risk to himself.

Yes and imo he held his line rather than taking rossi's anyway, and if you remember the aforementioned artist previously known as roger who was at the track admired stoner's efforts in taking on rossi before being distracted by the controversy about stoner's post-race "whinging" (or righteous indignation as you and I might alternatively see it) .

Bunyip · Oct 23, 2010

michaelm said:
Yes and imo he held his line rather than taking rossi's anyway, and if you remember the aforementioned (bull) artist previously known as roger who was at the track admired stoner's efforts in taking on rossi before being distracted by the controversy about stoner's post-race "whinging" (or righteous indignation as you and I might correctly see it) .

We agree............. Roger deserved to be engulfed (phagocytosed

) by his new more understanding entity.

chopperman · Oct 23, 2010

Bunyip said:
We agree............. Roger deserved to be engulfed (phagocytosed

) by his new more understanding entity.

seeing as where dragging up old ...., anyone remember Hayden making contact with rossi twice between the start line and the first corner in valencia 06 ?

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 23, 2010

chopperman said:
seeing as where dragging up old ...., anyone remember Hayden making contact with rossi twice between the start line and the first corner in valencia 06 ?

How else was he going to get close enough to puncture Rossi's tire? A great day that was.

michaelm · Oct 23, 2010

Keshav said:
Great Post! Some have said it's okay because (other than the footpeg through the foot incident) because Rossi (and Simoncelli) hasn't killed or maimed anyone - but I still believe in the concept of accepted track "etiquette" (a gay word to be sure) that 90% of other riders are willing to adhere to. I don't agree that others don't do it more frequently - simply because they're "not talented enough". Such an assertion is either ignorant or disengenuous.

We basically agree on many things, since whilst (as a consequence of hopefully having some connection with consensual reality) I recognise rossi's greatness, there are two riders I would rather see win the 2011 world championship who are probably among the top few riders you would like to see win. However I think it is possibly also disingenuous to compare rossi with simoncelli; whilst whether riders are injured in crashes is obviously considerably down to luck and not in control of the causative rider, rossi has taken out very few other riders in crashes due to misjudged overtaking manoeuvres, surely close to the least in history pro rata. The same is far from true for simoncelli.

povol · Oct 23, 2010

chopperman said:
Ironic he is a pedro fan eh ?

Oh yeah, amd this is Povol. Thats to get you back for calling me "Kenny Powers " you ....... Yeah ive now seen the show

10854:278527.jpg]

Whoa, Whoa. Wasnt i who said you looked like Kenny Powers. Im not sure, but that might have been your little buddy Jumkie

Keshav · Oct 23, 2010

michaelm said:
We basically agree on many things, since whilst (as a consequence of hopefully having some connection with consensual reality) I recognise rossi's greatness, there are two riders I would rather see win the 2011 world championship who are probably among the top few riders you would like to see win. However I think it is possibly also disingenuous to compare rossi with simoncelli; whilst whether riders are injured in crashes is obviously considerably down to luck and not in control of the causative rider, rossi has taken out very few other riders in crashes due to misjudged overtaking manoeuvres, surely close to the least in history pro rata. The same is far from true for simoncelli.

That Simoncelli didn't injure anyone during his 250 years is something I chalk up to luck and of course the

talent of his competitors.

With Rossi - it's more a question of talent. Rossi does not share his fellow Paisan's sociopathic disregard for the

safety of fellow riders.

chopperman · Oct 23, 2010

povol said:
Whoa, Whoa. Wasnt i who said you looked like Kenny Powers. Im not sure, but that might have been your little buddy Jumkie

Yeah, my bad. Kesh has owned up to that

povol · Oct 23, 2010

chopperman said:
Yeah, my bad. Kesh has owned up to that

Sorry Jum. it appears me nor Rog have any short term memory left

J4rn0 · Oct 24, 2010

Bunyip said:
Somebody wake me up, ....

I,m confused.

+1

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