Assen TT - Rnd 8 2015 - SPOILERS

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ratdeal said:
Well if my theory is to be proved correct, then we will need Dani to step up at Sachsenring (injuries/mindset permitting).

I think that currently Marc's style is incompatible with the 2015 bike, and given his finger pointing at every major element of the package and Nakamoto's differing view, we could see a very interesting sub-plot develop. It also suggests that Marc has absolutely no idea how to set-up and ride the current package, and in actual fact the problem is the rider and not the bike.

Marc has mentioned more than once that the bike is too sensitive to rider error. This may be correct, however he is the only rider who rides in such a loose manner. Dani however displays greater mechanical sympathy in my opinion. Could it be that the bike just isn't happy to be ridden this loosely and with what seems to be incompatible set-up compromises to allow this style, and actually the performance potential is higher if kept closer its optimum performance parameters, i.e, not ridden around the 105% mark with a compromised set-up, but closer to the 99-101% range using the optimum one?

We could well see that a precision riding approach actually coaxes the bikes true character out, and Marc just isn't capable of riding a machine that requires a more considered approach.

Should Dani out-perform Marquez, and on the full 2015 machine we will see all the so called expert pundits looking decidedly stupid. I'm sorry but I'm of the opinion that all this flywheel, chassis, electronics talk is a load of tosh written to sell column inches by a group of journalists unqualified to make such judgements.

If Dani does beat Marc, I'd be interested to see how he responds as he is experiencing a tough moment, and everyone seems to have blind faith in him despite seeing the obvious every weekend. That Marc has clear weaknesses inherent to his riding style that he can't change.
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I definitely agree that riding styles matter an awful lot, but some people here strongly disagree whenever I mention that in any sentence with "Rossi" in it... :). Even at the amateur level different riders will set up identical bikes in very different manners, to the point that what one favors would make the bike unrideable for the other! Go figure at the MotoGP level.

It always happened that the same bike could win in the hands of one rider and look mediocre in the hands of his teammate. It is always the package (rider-tires-bike-setup) that is (or is not) competitive, seldom just the bike in itself.

Of course if nobody can win on a given bike, then there's some problem there... :)
 
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JPSLotus said:
Dani hasn't mentioned anything to the issues MM has been carrying on about for the past couple of months. That's the other reason I remain a bit skeptical of the RC213V woes.

But what ratdeal mentions, I agree with. We've not seen the "real" Dani Pedrosa yet. I thought we got a slight glimpse of him in Catalunya because he was able to ride well enough to get on the podium. Not at the pace of the M1's, but he certainly did enough to outpace the rest of the field which is more in line with my belief that the Honda is still a better bike than everything else out there.

Certainly the Sachsenring does favor the Honda's, so this is as good of a test as any to see where the riders and the RCV stands.

J-Lo was 10 seconds behind Dani last year, so that's the benchmark we have at the moment to go off of.
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Truly - not to be pedantic, but at this stage I'm of the belief that there isn't necessarily a "best bike out there" per se. The Honda may have more bells and whistles - but given the huge number of factors that are specifically redesigned and finessed to suit the individual riders - and the way that riders change their riding style (within the parameters of just how mentally agile they are) it seems that there really isn't a Holy Grail of motorcycle perfection that is best suitable to all riders. We've seen time and again, riders move up from satellite teams to factory and not do all that much better. Stoner seemed like a god when he finally went to Repsol and everybody was toeing the "It rides itself" line - and then when the tires changed, it was a different story. When Yamaha lost all it's sponsorship and was clearly down on power, I'd say yes, the Honda had a very clear advantage. But this year - I think the bikes are as closely matched as they have been for a long time. For what it's worth - I notice that since J Burgess retired - nobody much mentions, never mind factors in, the brilliance of the guys in the garage when it comes to translating the rider's input - into actual working solutions.
 
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Jumkie said:
Agree, and of course there is that other way of looking at it, the bike will give u 100%, Pedro rides at 99%, Marc at 100.000001.


Stoner himself said something similar #22. Do u remember when he complained the new front Bstones was too "squeeshy". Others said, no its not. Then he said, but you're slower than me so you're not forcing it to fold like I am. Then everyone called him a whiner. (Well actually everyone called him a whiner every time he spoke, even when it was truth, then wondered why he said FU I'm going fishin). So you may be on to something there buddy.
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He whined because he was mentally frail, hypersensitive, sooking child. The only thing Ive never heard him complain about is the ........ you are so prone to giving him
 
SM, you can't deny that Stoner could ride. In terms of raw ability and speed, I place him above Rossi.
 
SuperManatee said:
He whined because he was mentally frail, hypersensitive, sooking child. The only thing Ive never heard him complain about is the ........ you are so prone to giving him
Click to expand...

He did whine, but so do they all with some garnering rather less criticism for doing so than he did. Doohan whined frequently for instance, although usually after dominant wins.

In the case of many of the things Stoner was criticised for whining about he ended up being factually correct about the matter concerning which he whined, such as the danger of the Indy track and the danger of incidents where large closing speeds were involved. He was also correct in the matter to which Jumkie refers, as was later acknowledged by Valentino Rossi no less. As I recall it was not quite as Jumkie states, he said when the hard carcass tyre was voted out that they should keep both as the soft carcass tyre would prove insufficiently durable in racing conditions, as it did for everyone at PI 2013 and on some other occasions for Valentino. He was as J4rn0 has said a hard tyre man like Rossi, as it would seem is MM.

(EDIT He also has 2 more premier class world championships and 38 more premier class wins than you do, many of them on a difficult bike no-one else could ride. I quote Nick Hayden on first encountering the 2008 Ducati: "I don't know what they are paying Casey, but it's not enough").
 
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Keshav said:
Truly - not to be pedantic, but at this stage I'm of the belief that there isn't necessarily a "best bike out there" per se. The Honda may have more bells and whistles - but given the huge number of factors that are specifically redesigned and finessed to suit the individual riders - and the way that riders change their riding style (within the parameters of just how mentally agile they are) it seems that there really isn't a Holy Grail of motorcycle perfection that is best suitable to all riders. We've seen time and again, riders move up from satellite teams to factory and not do all that much better. Stoner seemed like a god when he finally went to Repsol and everybody was toeing the "It rides itself" line - and then when the tires changed, it was a different story. When Yamaha lost all it's sponsorship and was clearly down on power, I'd say yes, the Honda had a very clear advantage. But this year - I think the bikes are as closely matched as they have been for a long time. For what it's worth - I notice that since J Burgess retired - nobody much mentions, never mind factors in, the brilliance of the guys in the garage when it comes to translating the rider's input - into actual working solutions.
Click to expand...

By virtue of the results, you have to say as it stands, the M1 is the better bike when compared to the RCV. Sure if the RCV goes sheet with wins from Germany to Valencia, then that's another story. But it's reasonable to say as things stand, the M1 is the superior bike with the RCV second.

I agree that there is no holy grail of motorcycle bike design, but some are more adept than others at being able to adapt to whatever a bike gives them. Sure to get a world championship winning bike is more difficult than getting a race winning bike. There's a reason you need a team; it's not down to the rider alone or the engineers alone, you need both to win.
 
#22 said:
SM, you can't deny that Stoner could ride. In terms of raw ability and speed, I place him above Rossi.
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What Casey did in winning races with a carbon fiber chassis is probably the greatest accomplishment to come out of MotoGP in the last decade if you ask me. No one else has managed to win a grand prix using a carbon fiber chassis. The 9-times world champion for all of his accolades couldn't do it.
 
JPSLotus said:
What Casey did in winning races with a carbon fiber chassis is probably the greatest accomplishment to come out of MotoGP in the last decade if you ask me. No one else has managed to win a grand prix using a carbon fiber chassis. The 9-times world champion for all of his accolades couldn't do it.
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Look, all prejudices aside, Rossi is fing amazing, particularly what he is doing now at age 36, and Mick Doohan, let alone Casey Stoner, couldn't manage his duration at the very top, as Mick himself said even before Valentino's current resurgence.

Not matching Valentino Rossi's 20 years at the top is not the same as being mentally frail, however. Winning 23 races on a Ducati, 13 of them not on the 2007 bike which may (I do say may) have been relatively better, is entirely inconsistent with mental frailty by any rational standard, and makes him much tougher than most GP bike racers, let alone all casual posters on motogp forums. He had titanium balls whilst actually racing. If he got emotional and ran off his mouth a little in the letdown after races on a bike that was trying to kill him, so what?
 
SuperManatee said:
He whined because he was mentally frail, hypersensitive, sooking child. The only thing Ive never heard him complain about is the ........ you are so prone to giving him
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You sound more and more like someone who deserted the forum a while back. Your posts are almost verbatim repeats of that person's. Now who could it be?
 
The main problem, is that while most of the Rossi Boppers (many of whom call/ed themselves MotoGP fans when in fact they were just getting boners everytime Rossi won) could pass off Hayden's championship as lucky and a one off, I have always believed that Casey Stoners biggest crime was having the audacity to hand Rossi his arse on more than one occasion, and these Rossi bopers detested, even felt outright sick that there was someone out there who could consistently stop the man they ...... off watching from winning. I'm not a particular CS personality fan but he could ride, and is that not what we watch RACING for?

I was at Donington 2007, and all I can tell you is Stoner handed everyone including the great VR their arses (and he started 5th, behind Rossi in 2nd). I was there, it was cold and wet. I've also had the pleasure (or displeasure) of racing at Donington in the wet and it was scary enough on 4 wheels with 1/3 the power of the GP bike and I respected all the riders who finished, but especially Stoner.

What then happened? Hundreds of ..... (sorry to use that word but it's needed) who claimed to love the 'sport' booed Stoner when he was on the podium. I was disgusted and had I been able to, would have gone up to Stoner and said well done and not to tar all the people attending with the same brush, I just couldn't believe it. We get it, your boy didn't win, but don't boo the person who did you infatile ......

I've worked in F1 in a relatively low pressure no spotlight position and I only did it for a year. For anyone to say a top level GP rider, flying all around the world with the pressures to perform on track while doing a lot of other .... you don't want to, let alone on a Ducati no other rider on earth could win on, is weak minded and frail needs to get a job on the GP circuit rather than making assumptions from the comfort of their phone.

Just my opinion of course.
 
michaelm said:
Look, all prejudices aside, Rossi is fing amazing, particularly what he is doing now at age 36, and Mick Doohan, let alone Casey Stoner, couldn't manage his duration at the very top, as Mick himself said even before Valentino's current resurgence.

Not matching Valentino Rossi's 20 years at the top is not the same as being mentally frail, however. Winning 23 races on a Ducati, 13 of them not on the 2007 bike which may (I do say may) have been relatively better, is entirely inconsistent with mental frailty by any rational standard, and makes him much tougher than most GP bike racers, let alone all casual posters on motogp forums. He had titanium balls whilst actually racing. If he got emotional and ran off his mouth a little in the letdown after races on a bike that was trying to kill him, so what?
Click to expand...

I don't disagree about Rossi doing what he is doing at the age of 36. It's unheard of for a rider to be competitive at this age in grand prix motorcycle racing. Not a fan of him, but I give him respect for that because to be able to keep yourself focused when it would be very easy to say .... it, and retire, requires mental discipline very few would want to continue. But then again it also depends on life perspectives as well.

Your second point is why I never understood the Stoner hate. So he wasn't Rossi. Big ....... deal. Guys so rarely speak their mind in motor racing anymore, that it's always nice when a rare one comes along, and does just that. The fans are funny...many complain about a lack of authenticity from the riders or drivers, then complain when they get just that. To ride a bike that was designed the way the Desmos were, and to win on them...that should have told everyone the truth about his talent and mental toughness.
 
#22 said:
The main problem, is that while most of the Rossi Boppers (many of whom call/ed themselves MotoGP fans when in fact they were just getting boners everytime Rossi won) could pass off Hayden's championship as lucky and a one off, I have always believed that Casey Stoners biggest crime was having the audacity to hand Rossi his arse on more than one occasion, and these Rossi bopers detested, even felt outright sick that there was someone out there who could consistently stop the man they ...... off watching from winning. I'm not a particular CS personality fan but he could ride, and is that not what we watch RACING for?

I was at Donington 2007, and all I can tell you is Stoner handed everyone including the great VR their arses (and he started 5th, behind Rossi in 2nd). I was there, it was cold and wet. I've also had the pleasure (or displeasure) of racing at Donington in the wet and it was scary enough on 4 wheels with 1/3 the power of the GP bike and I respected all the riders who finished, but especially Stoner.

What then happened? Hundreds of ..... (sorry to use that word but it's needed) who claimed to love the 'sport' booed Stoner when he was on the podium. I was disgusted and had I been able to, would have gone up to Stoner and said well done and not to tar all the people attending with the same brush, I just couldn't believe it. We get it, your boy didn't win, but don't boo the person who did you infatile ......

I've worked in F1 in a relatively low pressure no spotlight position and I only did it for a year. For anyone to say a top level GP rider, flying all around the world with the pressures to perform on track while doing a lot of other .... you don't want to, let alone on a Ducati no other rider on earth could win on, is weak minded and frail needs to get a job on the GP circuit rather than making assumptions from the comfort of their phone.

Just my opinion of course.
Click to expand...

Ah the legendary class of British fans on display.

Probably the same ones who had the ".... Senna" banners flying at Silverstone in '91.
 
Lovely, charming people.

Hence why I've not been to races since. I'll wait till I can get Stateside :)
 
I don't get the Rossi boppers at all. I do understand why they like the guy, but the blinders they wear is insane. My feeling is, appreciate supreme talent when it is there because you never know how the long the window to see it is open for.
 
Are we at the Rossi-Stoner junction again...?! We must have been moving in circles.
:)

I can understand Lorenzo's frustration -- with all the planting of Lorenzo's Land black flags he's been doing, he never manages to stir up any debate, or any real emotion for that matter. Ah! Can't blame Rossi for that.

One piece of news that may have passed unnoticed: interviewed by Sky Italy, Casey Stoner is now on record saying Rossi was right at Assen, and Marquez was wrong. Since he's not the kind of man who says things just to please the audience, I guess that's what he thinks.

Even more surprising: Biaggi himself said the same!
To balance things, Dr. Costa said Marquez was correct and Rossi wrong.
I wonder... :rolleyes:
 
J4rn0 said:
Are we at the Rossi-Stoner junction again...?! We must have been moving in circles.
:)

I can understand Lorenzo's frustration -- with all the planting of Lorenzo's Land black flags he's been doing, he never manages to stir up any debate, or any real emotion for that matter. Ah! Can't blame Rossi for that.

One piece of news that may have passed unnoticed: interviewed by Sky Italy, Casey Stoner is now on record saying Rossi was right at Assen, and Marquez was wrong. Since he's not the kind of man who says things just to please the audience, I guess that's what he thinks.

Even more surprising: Biaggi himself said the same!
To balance things, Dr. Costa said Marquez was correct and Rossi wrong.
I wonder... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I don't think Rossi was in the wrong, and any sane, rational observer would have concluded Rossi did nothing wrong at Assen. He was on the racing line, and would have clipped the apex just fine to setup for the exit out of the final corner of the chicane, till MM decided to rush in like a bull in a china shop hoping his mere presence would be enough to force Rossi into ceding the position he believed was rightfully his.

The only people I've encountered who thought Rossi was in the wrong are idiots and MurderMac fans. I had one person elsewhere try and tell me that they should check the telemetry for how fast Rossi was going because how do we know Rossi could have made the corner. I told him to go get his ....... eyes checked and to try drawing a straight line from where Rossi was when he was leaned over at the moment of contact to see if he was in line with the chicane exit. Rossi was right on line to clip the second apex had he been allowed to progress forward.

Only thing up for debate is whether Rossi planned to cut onto the gravel if he felt any contact from MM.
 
#22 said:
Lovely, charming people.

Hence why I've not been to races since. I'll wait till I can get Stateside :)
Click to expand...

I witnessed this. As I recall Stoner had made derogatory comments about the track surface and dismissed Doni as a ‘.... circuit’ – which as one of the spiritual homes of short circuit motorcycling racing in the U.K. is a bit like walking into the roughest pub in Salford and proclaiming a disliking for the Smiths – (refer/cross reference to ‘What are you Listening to thread’) But as #22 says – the hatred directed at the podium, throughout the weekend and most reprehensibly and deplorably during his appearance at the ‘Day of Champions’ was shameful. I was at Doni in 2006 following Rossi’s off at Ramshoek when he was riding with a severely damaged wrist and was beaten by Dani. Not to take anything away from Pedrosa, he rode a commanding and impressive race. After the race he was jeered and barracked in Parc-Ferme by a simmering sea of yellow. The custard cum shot crew hurling abuse weren’t genuine fans of the sport, just typical U.K. glory hunters who probably also donned red shirts on a Saturday but have never been within 50 square miles of Old Trafford. Not Vale’s fault of course but it’s not simply confined to the U.K. I must admit that I did particularly enjoy, several weeks later at Laguna, being surrounded by a similar throng of canary coloured clowns outfield at Andretti when the M1 spectacularly let go. I wasn’t there in 2007 but I’ll wager after what had happened at Estoril Dani was wishing he was back amongst the lions den at Doni. I remember Dennis Noyes reporting at the inaugural Indy that he had never witnessed such a hostile reception for any rider as Pedro received that weekend.
 
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J4rn0 said:
Are we at the Rossi-Stoner junction again...?! We must have been moving in circles.
:)

I can understand Lorenzo's frustration -- with all the planting of Lorenzo's Land black flags he's been doing, he never manages to stir up any debate, or any real emotion for that matter. Ah! Can't blame Rossi for that.

One piece of news that may have passed unnoticed: interviewed by Sky Italy, Casey Stoner is now on record saying Rossi was right at Assen, and Marquez was wrong. Since he's not the kind of man who says things just to please the audience, I guess that's what he thinks.

Even more surprising: Biaggi himself said the same!
To balance things, Dr. Costa said Marquez was correct and Rossi wrong.
I wonder... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I am not sure how much respect I have for Dr Costa in his actual profession, but I don't believe that profession is or ever was GP bike riding.
 

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