Assen 2016

moto vudu · Jun 25, 2016

Gaz said:
With those pics MV (as the inner 'hater' comes out), it is actually very hard to judge if he has changed his style appreciably as they are different corners under different circumstances. To be able to truly determine one would need to see pics at the same corner (or corners preferably with right/left views) as then you can compare apples to apples (which would be quite difficult to find within the number of pics of VR)

But, that all said to this observer he has obviously changed the style from the older more classical style of early 2000's to the more 'off the bike' styles of today. Whether he has gone 'full MM' for example I do not believe so as the Yamaha is a totally different bike to the Honda and as such the style required to ride it will be slightly (perhaps largely) different and as such, VR will only adjust that which he needs to be competitive.

IMO only here, but the direction of the Honda is the cause of Pedrosa's woes, and not just the motor as he has stated previously as DP is a more classical style of rider who is struggling to adjust (again IMO, but the Yamaha would likely suit him better as it has been developed around JL/VR's more sedate/classical style)

Elbow down isn't always the best way.

Gaz · Jun 25, 2016

Keep trying MV but the top two are at different points of the corner.

The first is as he is picking up to drive out, whilst the second is a few yards prior.

May seem minor but it makes a difference from a comparative view, thus my mention of how difficult it would be to form a true comparison (videos would show it better as it will show the full behaviour through corners etc), but as I stated, style has changed so you can keep trying to prove something that I already see or we can move on to the next 'VR is the greatest because ........ '

Fact is, if a rider cannot change with the times then their tenure will be far less than a rider capable of changing and evolving their style

birdman · Jun 25, 2016

moto vudu said:
Soft edge grip tires don't really go into hiding, they can only be used at certain tracks and in certain conditions. VR and MM are able to be quick in a wider operating spectrum than Lorenzo. Lorenzo needs to work on closing that hole in his game, but he probably doesn't believe he has any holes in his game.

When Rossi returned to Yamaha, his biggest issue was that he couldn't brake without bottoming out the forks. Rossi's strength is in braking zones, Lorenzo's strength is corner speed. Give Rossi a bike with a frontend that doesn't provide good feel or he's bottoming out the forks and he'll go nowhere fast. Give Lorenzo tires with no edge grip and he goes nowhere fast.

Why do some here like to refer to the hard option tires as Rossi tires that have been cooked up to provide him an advantage, but they never refer to the softs are Lorenzo tires?

Firstly, bottoming front forks at this level, MotoGP, Ohlins forks, is comical. They are infinitely adjustible. Stiffer fork springs maybe, tinker with dampers. .... no wonder he fired Burgess.

Softs are Lorenzo tires. Now your onto something. Hards were Stoner tires. In 2012 the show was looking in big trouble with Stoner dominating early testing on hard construction tires. So uncle clown with the aid of comical capirossi instructed Bridgestone to change to soft construction. Naturally Honda were pissed so uncle said ok, in the name of democracy we vote. Of course Lorenzo voted soft, in fact every rider other than Stoner strongly voted soft. Apparently they all like more grip at the expense of some braking stability.

But the elephant in the room was Rossi. He also voted soft. But then later admitted it was a 'tactical error'.

moto vudu · Jun 25, 2016

Gaz said:
Keep trying MV but the top two are at different points of the corner.

The first is as he is picking up to drive out, whilst the second is a few yards prior.

May seem minor but it makes a difference from a comparative view, thus my mention of how difficult it would be to form a true comparison (videos would show it better as it will show the full behaviour through corners etc), but as I stated, style has changed so you can keep trying to prove something that I already see or we can move on to the next 'VR is the greatest because ........ '

Fact is, if a rider cannot change with the times then their tenure will be far less than a rider capable of changing and evolving their style

The pictures posted do show that Rossi has changed his riding style. It is not possible for anyone to say putting the elbow down more is the key riding a modern GP bike. Elbow down is a rider preference technique.

moto vudu · Jun 25, 2016

birdman said:
Firstly, bottoming front forks at this level, MotoGP, Ohlins forks, is comical. They are infinitely adjustible. Stiffer fork springs maybe, tinker with dampers. .... no wonder he fired Burgess.

Softs are Lorenzo tires. Now your onto something. Hards were Stoner tires. In 2012 the show was looking in big trouble with Stoner dominating early testing on hard construction tires. So uncle clown with the aid of comical capirossi instructed Bridgestone to change to soft construction. Naturally Honda were pissed so uncle said ok, in the name of democracy we vote. Of course Lorenzo voted soft, in fact every rider other than Stoner strongly voted soft. Apparently they all like more grip at the expense of some braking stability.

But the elephant in the room was Rossi. He also voted soft. But then later admitted it was a 'tactical error'.

They all liked the soft or they were simply trying to put Stoner at a disadvantage?

Gaz · Jun 25, 2016

moto vudu said:
The pictures posted do show that Rossi has changed his riding style. It is not possible for anyone to say, putting the elbow down more is the key riding a modern GP bike. Elbow down is a rider preference technique.

Problem with you hypothesis is that the pics are at different points in the same corner, thus the 'changes' to his style are exaggerated in the comparison because at one point he is picking the bike up to drive out of the turn, whilst in the other he is in the turn itself. A true and fair comparison would have been pics at the same point in the corner so one can compare apples with apples, and not compare an apple with an apple with a bite taken.

As for the elbow down, it is not a necessity of style but a consequence of tyre/chassis design as essentially with the modern bike and body positioning, the elbow has to go somewhere and thus is hits the ground in the manner displayed. This is my theory only as I do not believe that it is on the ground through necessity but will accept that were it to be tucked in then the control on the bars may be adversely affected ever so slightly (ie. stronger grip on bars given arm angle)

michaelm · Jun 25, 2016

moto vudu said:
Soft edge grip tires don't really go into hiding, they can only be used at certain tracks and in certain conditions. VR and MM are able to be quick in a wider operating spectrum than Lorenzo. Lorenzo needs to work on closing that hole in his game, but he probably doesn't believe he has any holes in his game.

When Rossi returned to Yamaha, his biggest issue was that he couldn't brake without bottoming out the forks. Rossi's strength is in braking zones, Lorenzo's strength is corner speed. Give Rossi a bike with a frontend that doesn't provide good feel or he's bottoming out the forks and he'll go nowhere fast. Give Lorenzo tires with no edge grip and he goes nowhere fast.

Why do some here like to refer to the hard option tires are Rossi tires that have been cooked up to provide him an advantage, but they never refer to the softs are Lorenzo tires?

They should all be able to have tyres which suit them imo. I don't think it is necessary to be all that much of a conspiracy theorist to suggest that Dorna themselves have manipulated the tyre situation to suit their ends, whether or not at Rossi's behest or on his behalf, and I certainly believe with the mid season tyre change in 2012 that one of the results was the unpopular Stoner's preferred tyre no longer being available to him was at the very least a welcome side benefit.

moto vudu · Jun 25, 2016

Gaz said:
Problem with you hypothesis is that the pics are at different points in the same corner, thus the 'changes' to his style are exaggerated in the comparison because at one point he is picking the bike up to drive out of the turn, whilst in the other he is in the turn itself. A true and fair comparison would have been pics at the same point in the corner so one can compare apples with apples, and not compare an apple with an apple with a bite taken.

As for the elbow down, it is not a necessity of style but a consequence of tyre/chassis design as essentially with the modern bike and body positioning, the elbow has to go somewhere and thus is hits the ground in the manner displayed. This is my theory only as I do not believe that it is on the ground through necessity but will accept that were it to be tucked in then the control on the bars may be adversely affected ever so slightly (ie. stronger grip on bars given arm angle)

Article on Rossi adapting his riding style:
Valentino Rossi Remakes His Riding Style, MotoGP Racing | Cycle World

When you watch videos of Valentino Rossi in action in 2002—the first year of MotoGP, with 990cc machines—what you see is classical European riding. In corners he is slid off-center by one butt cheek, but his upper body remains more centered above the tank. His inside knee is down. He often lifted the rear tire during braking, then set it into turns a bit sideways. Good classic style.

He was taking his time in those early races, not pushing to the limit. He would shadow rivals such as Max Biaggi, Carlos Checa, and Sete Gibernau. He applied pressure and waited for two things: (1) evidence of fatigue in his opponent’s tires, and (2) a mistake. Then he boldly passed, often under unusual circumstances. This was an exhausting psychological game, as Rossi forced the man ahead to divide his attention between keeping a leading pace and preparing for the unknown moment of Rossi’s attack.

Racing is not a reflex contest. It is a high-speed intelligence test. Understanding is essential. In 2007, Rossi said, “If you are able to understand before (the others) a new profile of tire, a new part in the bike, you have an advantage in the work.”

Also, Rossi was backed by Jeremy Burgess, who saw to it that Vale’s bike was easier to ride fast than the others. By use of trackside engine mapping, the two created a situation in which Rossi, leading a given race, looked more in control and at ease than any of those following him. In 2004, Burgess said to me, “The engine delivery is the secret of the lap time.” If power could be made more usable, he could use more of it than his rivals.

When I asked Burgess how a team can find time to optimally set up the rapidly expanding electronic options, he said, “It helps a lot if your rider is intelligent.”

Naturally, as other teams learned to exploit trackside mapping and then other electronic strategies, this advantage was gradually lost. Rossi’s competitors also learned to match his degree of fitness. Casey Stoner, asked if modern technology has reduced passing in MotoGP, said, “I think it’s not the bikes that are reducing the passing. I think it’s just become such a professional sport that riders don’t make mistakes like they used to. Everyone has to train their butts off now, just to ride these bikes.”

To remain on top, therefore, a rider must continually devise new means of going faster. Everyone is learning from everyone else, driving the pace higher.

Insight into Valentino’s early MotoGP style came from things he and former teammate Colin Edwards said in 2008. Colin wanted a soft, supple tire carcass that would lay down the large footprint his style needed—for rapid acceleration after braking late, getting turned early, and using the rest of the corner for acceleration. Valentino wanted a stiff carcass that could generate large, steady cornering force as he swept around at high speed on a big line. When I asked Rossi what happened when he tried Colin’s rear tire, he said, “The bike jumps sideways.” The soft carcass, lacking stiffness to sustain high cornering force, buckles.

Despite his ability to change his style frequently enough to win titles on the very different 125, 250, 500, and MotoGP machines, Rossi did not adapt in 2011 and 2012 to the Ducati whose decline had driven Casey Stoner to Honda. Back on Yamaha in 2013, Rossi ran at the back of the leading group, apparently struggling to adapt to what the Yamaha had become in the meantime. The old Rossi was not up to the new work.

Then, in 2014, any onlooker could see changes in his riding. Much like Marquez, he was entering corners at substantial lean angle, then dropping down onto the tire edges only in the apex zone, not riding through the whole corner on them. He was moving his entire upper body off the bike to the inside, thereby holding the bike more upright. Skeptics have claimed lean angles are no greater than before, but they are looking only at the bike, and not at the lean angle of the center of mass of rider and bike combined. That angle has increased, and with it, corner speed.

Rossi said, “I’ve improved a lot compared to last year, especially in braking where I suffered last year very much. I try to use the tires in a better way, without stressing them too much.”

At Jerez in 2014, Rossi said, “I can brake 20 meters later. The gearbox makes the bike more stable so I can brake a lot deeper. I can really use the engine braking to stop, so I can divide grip more between the front and rear. Last year, it was all on the front.”

More Rossi from 2014: “If you want to stay on top, you must look at what the fastest riders are doing. I now use more of the top of my body to move outside of the bike to improve turning. I watch and I try to modify my position on the bike. I now move forward more to avoid wheelies.”

Asked if his new style is like that of Marquez, he replied” “It’s a bit like Marquez, but not exactly the same, as my legs are too long for that.”

The Yamahas that Rossi returned to are more powerful (Marquez has remarked on their strong off-corner acceleration), they now have the seamless gearbox, and they have improved braking stability. Bridgestone tires have evolved. Unless a rider fluidly adapts his style to such changes, exploiting every advantage they offer, he will fall behind. Rossi has lived at the front, and that is where his ability to adapt has again put him: leading the series.

michaelm · Jun 25, 2016

moto vudu said:
They all liked the soft or they were simply trying to put Stoner at a disadvantage?

See my later post. What was the necessity for a vote in the first place? As Honda said at the time, why not keep the pre-existing tyre as well as offering the new one? The development costs had already been incurred and the production facilities were already in place for that tyre.

Gaz · Jun 25, 2016

MV, seriously ........... did you even read what I wrote or just assumed that I was calling BS?

I will say it again ............ no need to try to convince me for if you go back a few posts I said that I had observed changes. Is it that important to you to try to support a point with which I agree?

Now, as for that article, and no offence intended but whoop dee dooo as nowhere have I ever read or heard that he has not adapted his style (note, adapted is the critical word as that is what riders do, adapt their style to the environment of the day)

So, next 'VR is the greatest because .............'

Gaz · Jun 25, 2016

michaelm said:
See my later post. What was the necessity for a vote in the first place? As Honda said at the time, why not keep the pre-existing tyre as well as offering the new one? The development costs had already been incurred and the production facilities were already in place for that tyre.

Agreed Mike, and as you know I am a fan of open slather on tyres provided that the tyre that may be developed for Rider A is then available for all riders and if that is not to be the case, then the tyre is removed from availability for all riders.

The change in 2012 meant a huge increase in HRC's costs which whilst many will say 'who cares' was in direct contrast with the 'ethos' of DORNA at the time to reduce costs .

birdman · Jun 25, 2016

moto vudu said:
They all liked the soft or they were simply trying to put Stoner at a disadvantage?

They being fellow riders or they being Ezpeleta? The later didn't want a runaway championship or boring runaway races. The former I guess knew they were trading one thing for another but overall must of preferred the benefits of softer construction tires.

Stoners specific objection to the soft construction was the lack of stability under braking, noting excessive sidewall deflection. Like I said Rossi later admitted Stoner was correct in his assessment. Yet he voted soft, I don't know why. But he only made that admission when he was on the Yamaha, as you pointed out struggling with braking and unable to match Lorenzo.

Now your getting fixated on 'elbow down'. Rossi can do it, but does he own that style, is he better at it than the rest? No. Lorenzo is massive corner speed elbow down. Marquez is all crossed up pivoting the bike on the front, elbow down saving the front, firing it out crossed up again, most radical style I've seen basically.

Now it was Lorenzo that said they as in his observer track side noted Rossi's strength was picking the bike up very smoothly on exit and getting grip where it's lacking. So hard braking, lower corner speed, smooth exit. Classical style imo. He does it better than most. Works very effectively with tires that spin up a lot or lack edge grip. The question is with 2016 technology why are tires lacking edge grip? Surely the aim to go faster is more edge grip, sacrifice some stability on the brakes? Yes, it's actually a proven fact most riders can lap faster under that compromise. The two exceptions are, Stoner, and you guessed it, Rossi.

birdman · Jun 25, 2016

Gaz said:
Problem with you hypothesis is that the pics are at different points in the same corner, thus the 'changes' to his style are exaggerated in the comparison because at one point he is picking the bike up to drive out of the turn, whilst in the other he is in the turn itself. A true and fair comparison would have been pics at the same point in the corner so one can compare apples with apples, and not compare an apple with an apple with a bite taken.

As for the elbow down, it is not a necessity of style but a consequence of tyre/chassis design as essentially with the modern bike and body positioning, the elbow has to go somewhere and thus is hits the ground in the manner displayed. This is my theory only as I do not believe that it is on the ground through necessity but will accept that were it to be tucked in then the control on the bars may be adversely affected ever so slightly (ie. stronger grip on bars given arm angle)

Lorenzo wasn't initially elbow down but with his corner speed style he quickly owned it and it looks perfect for him to do it. Marquez actually saves a tucking front with the elbow, which was radical in the extreme as they say he would do it almost every lap. Rossi to me anyway doesn't look natural elbow down as he is neither extreme corner speed nor sideways and tucking the front.

It's like Rossi owned the leg dangle and at that stage was moving riding styles forward. Stoner took over and pushed styles further, then Marquez further still. For the first time Rossi was playing catch up but as we know never rode Stoner much less Marquez radical style, I'd still call him classical.

Gaz · Jun 25, 2016

birdman said:
It's like Rossi owned the leg dangle and at that stage was moving riding styles forward. Stoner took over and pushed styles further, then Marquez further still. For the first time Rossi was playing catch up but as we know never rode Stoner much less Marquez radical style, I'd still call him classical.

Totally Birdy.

To me whilst Rossi has evolved his style he is still very much of the classical mould (or at least that which I call classical) in that he is inherently smooth with the bike being generally within line, as if on rails somewhat with little sideways on corner entry or exit (excepting the power slide). Essentially to me Rossi is more smooth than he is sideways but he is adaptable to conditional changes (be that weather or track temp etc) and does learn from others in so much as he watches then tries for himself to determine what works.

Marquez (as was Stoner) for me are more manic (as opposed to maniac) riders in that the bike is seemingly forever out of shape and/or crashing, only for them to save it (was it not JB or one of that team that stated after going to Ducati that Stoner's telemetry showed him as crashing every lap and yet he did not?).

Richy56 · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Lol, I didn't want to bring it up earlier because I wanted to see if all the members that were hating on Rossi at Mugello would say something. But of course, they're quiet as a mouse.

Haha just seen this. If Rossi wins fair play to him, he is still a cheat.

Btw atleast dovi could get in the tow, which is more than Rossi could on his duc.

Gaz · Jun 26, 2016

Richy56 said:
Haha just seen this. If Rossi wins fair play to him, he is still a cheat.

Btw atleast dovi could get in the tow, which is more than Rossi could on his duc.

Now now that is uncalled for ................. and likely to bring us photos of VR in another rider's tow/slipstream whilst he was on the Duc as proof that he is the greatest and has achieved all.

CharlieParker · Jun 26, 2016

Now this is really great, comically great. Yesterday Dovi rode a superb lap, being faster than everyone else by a country mile. The only one who was remotely close to him, speed wise, was Vale, who still endend up 7 tenths (I repeat: 7 freaking tenths) behind him. And if I remember properly, Dovi during T2 or T3 had even a greater advantage. Now, if anything, after all this, what people should really discuss about is whether Vale's position on the track during Dovi's qualifying lap SLOWED Dovi or not.

BUT Rossi bashers here can't do this, cause they know they have to keep spreading the propaganda that "towing is ........" (this propaganda being the real ........) no matter what. And the real funny thing is that by doing this they endend up giving a completely undeserved amount of credit to Rossi for a lap where Dovi, and Dovi only, rode superbly. Ideology...

Keshav · Jun 26, 2016

paparazzo said:
There is going to be some seriously piss off people when Valentino wins the championship this year and next year. This is as good as done. You will hear only cricket chirp here. I can not wait for this day.

I love the way you guys pound your chests about VR's inevitable championship domination, right up to the second when some other rider wins it - then crawl silently away to lick your wounds till next March without bothering to congratulate the rider who actually wins the championship; then return under yet another new avatar. You all remind me of the wimpy kid who uses his giant-sized older brother to terrorize other kids on the playground, and then slinks away with a hoodie over your head when there's no-one there to lean on.

JPSLotus · Jun 26, 2016

Rossi shows up on the front row, all of the boppers come running to the forum to call everyone bashers.

Same old .... all the time.

Using pictures to prove points would be all well and good if the pictures were 100% identical which they aren't.

Rossi has adapted his riding style from when he showed up in 500cc back in 2000. Stop acting as if he is the only rider to ever adapt his riding style. Christ, this is the yellow-tinted bopper .... that gets so tiresome. The way you guys talk, you'd think he was the only rider in history to ever adapt. He's not, nor will he ever be. All of the talented adapt. It's the lesser talents that aren't able to adapt as well.

BarryMachine · Jun 26, 2016

CharlieParker said:
Now this is really great, comically great. Yesterday Dovi rode a superb lap, being faster than everyone else by a country mile. The only one who was remotely close to him, speed wise, was Vale, who still endend up 7 tenths (I repeat: 7 freaking tenths) behind him. And if I remember properly, Dovi during T2 or T3 had even a greater advantage. Now, if anything, after all this, what people should really discuss about is whether Vale's position on the track during Dovi's qualifying lap SLOWED Dovi or not.

BUT Rossi bashers here can't do this, cause they know they have to keep spreading the propaganda that "towing is ........" (this propaganda being the real ........) no matter what. And the real funny thing is that by doing this they endend up giving a completely undeserved amount of credit to Rossi for a lap where Dovi, and Dovi only, rode superbly. Ideology...

What have I missed? Has rossi been getting a tow again? :cry::cry::cry:

Assen 2016

Help Support MotoGP Forum:

moto vudu

Gaz

birdman

moto vudu

moto vudu

Gaz

michaelm

moto vudu

michaelm

Gaz

Gaz

birdman

birdman

Gaz

Richy56

Gaz

CharlieParker

Keshav

JPSLotus

BarryMachine

Similar threads

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions