2023 Motul Grand Prix of Japan

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MichaelBolton

MichaelBolton

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Let's start this thing. Feels weird that there are still 7 rounds left, usually Japan signified an end to things.

Will the Japanese bikes continue their good streak? Can Bagnaia settle and not bin it for once? Will Jorge and Marco keep the consistency they need? Will Marc do a WWE style reveal announcing his departure at the end of the GP?

Rins will be traveling and trying himself on a MotoGP for the first time since injury. I think he'll probably withdraw but let's see.

Oscar Haro, Spanish journo who is often very opinionated and has a few good friendships inside the paddock, believes the new tire pressure rules have hurt Bagnaia and that's why he's out of his groove since Barcelona, struggling with braking which was previously his strongest point.
 
Could be a good point re Bagnaia. Will be an interesting weekend, both on and off the track.
 
MichaelBolton said:
Oscar Haro, Spanish journo who is often very opinionated and has a few good friendships inside the paddock, believes the new tire pressure rules have hurt Bagnaia and that's why he's out of his groove since Barcelona, struggling with braking which was previously his strongest point.
Click to expand...
There's an article which quotes Bagnaia criticising the front tyre pressure rule
 
I've heard that KTM might be running the carbon fibre (CF) frame and while I don't know what the difference is between the square steel frame and the carbon frame in feel etc, we can't ignore Pedrosa's performance on it. If it's adopted we could see KTM go thru iterations of the CF frame, which is easy to do with CF, ie KTM should be in a better position to respond to frame requests
 
mikesbytes said:
I've heard that KTM might be running the carbon fibre (CF) frame and while I don't know what the difference is between the square steel frame and the carbon frame in feel etc, we can't ignore Pedrosa's performance on it. If it's adopted we could see KTM go thru iterations of the CF frame, which is easy to do with CF, ie KTM should be in a better position to respond to frame requests
Click to expand...
I have spent most of my life in the bike industry. Steel and carbon fiber couldn't be farther apart when it comes to material. Steel has a flex to it. It has a smooth feel when riding on it. It has a rubber band quality. Carbon fiber is stiffer than all metals used. It is so rigid, they couldn't be more different. They both have their positive and negative qualities. I'll say this though, when it comes to speed the stiffness and reduction in weight makes carbon fiber the preferred material. For a day to day rider steel would be better. If you rode the same ride on both materials, the steel bike would feel smoother you would feel less of the little bumps and things in the road. Where after a ride on carbon fiber your hands may still be vibrating from feeling of all the details of the road but the power is more efficient from the stiffer chassis. Aluminum being the in between of the two materials.

As for carbon fiber being easier to change this is not true. A steel chassis can be changed by different lengths in tubing, weld angles, ect. In order to make a different carbon fiber chassis you have to create a entirely new mold for even the slightest change.
 
To add to that. I think Binder my need to adjust his style of riding on carbon. I think one of the reason Brad is able to make the shapes he does with the current bike is the steel frame. The flexible quality of chromoly allows it to be more forgiving when the bike isn't inline. Pedrosa doing better on the cf chassis makes sense since he is a point and shoot style rider.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
To add to that. I think Binder my need to adjust his style of riding on carbon. I think one of the reason Brad is able to make the shapes he does with the current bike is the steel frame. The flexible quality of chromoly allows it to be more forgiving when the bike isn't inline. Pedrosa doing better on the cf chassis makes sense since he is a point and shoot style rider.
Click to expand...
Good point... One would think the KTM engineers would take all of that into consideration, but then again, I also thought that his team would have learned by now not to send him out as late as possible for his qualifying runs! :mad:
 
Crutchlow will be participating as a wildcard here. He's already doing what he likes best, giving juicy bits to the press. He's said that he opposed the current Yammy engine but Fabio and Franco wanted it anyway, says Yamaha should be focusing on the engine, rideability/smoothness and grip, and leave aerodinamics for last, citing their lap times were faster without them. Thinks the motor they tested on Misano is on the right track, the one Meregalli praised but Quartararo seemed to hate. This is interesting, I wonder if Yamaha has lost trust on Fabio as a development rider and is back to making their own thing.

Cal also said that if Marc goes to Ducati, he would probably be a monster on it, he doesn't think Marc has lost speed and blames Honda for the current woes.
 
Vineales and Zarco are worth the same in Moto GP Fantasy. I was thinking of switching to Zarco but Vineales is top 3 right now in practice. Seems Zarco has checked out
 
MichaelBolton said:
Crutchlow will be participating as a wildcard here. He's already doing what he likes best, giving juicy bits to the press. He's said that he opposed the current Yammy engine but Fabio and Franco wanted it anyway, says Yamaha should be focusing on the engine, rideability/smoothness and grip, and leave aerodinamics for last, citing their lap times were faster without them. Thinks the motor they tested on Misano is on the right track, the one Meregalli praised but Quartararo seemed to hate. This is interesting, I wonder if Yamaha has lost trust on Fabio as a development rider and is back to making their own thing.

Cal also said that if Marc goes to Ducati, he would probably be a monster on it, he doesn't think Marc has lost speed and blames Honda for the current woes.
Click to expand...

I hope he goes there then. I miss seeing monster Marc.
He is sooo good when the bike has enough speed. 8)
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
I have spent most of my life in the bike industry. Steel and carbon fiber couldn't be farther apart when it comes to material. Steel has a flex to it. It has a smooth feel when riding on it. It has a rubber band quality. Carbon fiber is stiffer than all metals used. It is so rigid, they couldn't be more different. They both have their positive and negative qualities. I'll say this though, when it comes to speed the stiffness and reduction in weight makes carbon fiber the preferred material. For a day to day rider steel would be better. If you rode the same ride on both materials, the steel bike would feel smoother you would feel less of the little bumps and things in the road. Where after a ride on carbon fiber your hands may still be vibrating from feeling of all the details of the road but the power is more efficient from the stiffer chassis. Aluminum being the in between of the two materials.

As for carbon fiber being easier to change this is not true. A steel chassis can be changed by different lengths in tubing, weld angles, ect. In order to make a different carbon fiber chassis you have to create a entirely new mold for even the slightest change.
Click to expand...
You are correct that carbon fibre (CF) is stiffer however it isn't quite the simple as you can use much thinner layer(s) of CF to create more flex than thin metal. Also you can create different levels of flex in different parts of rod

CF doesn't need to be made in a mould, it can be wrapped around anything that's solid, a carboard tube or even a steel struct. They have even used CF to stiffen up an alloy frame at a particular point rather than build a new alloy frame.

Whether the CF frame is better than the steel frame will depend on what was wrong with the steel frame and whether the CF frame fixes those problems without causing other problems. CF is not the solution, its what they do with the CF is or isn't the solution.
 
mikesbytes said:
You are correct that carbon fibre (CF) is stiffer however it isn't quite the simple as you can use much thinner layer(s) of CF to create more flex than thin metal. Also you can create different levels of flex in different parts of rod

CF doesn't need to be made in a mould, it can be wrapped around anything that's solid, a carboard tube or even a steel struct. They have even used CF to stiffen up an alloy frame at a particular point rather than build a new alloy frame.

Whether the CF frame is better than the steel frame will depend on what was wrong with the steel frame and whether the CF frame fixes those problems without causing other problems. CF is not the solution, its what they do with the CF is or isn't the solution.
Click to expand...
You cannot make thin cf on a motorcycle chassis and you cannot add flex points. If you are using cf it is because you are looking for a stiff light material. Adding flex points is a very bad idea for cf because it has very little fatigue before failure. Steel breaks like a mailable substance where cf shatters the moment it is over stressed. Besides adding flex points is not the same as using a more flexible material. Steel flexes evenly like a curve. Adding flex points will give it a point a, point b, point c flex making it very unnatural and also inconsistent.

Yes you can wrap carbon fiber around other materials but then you dont have a true carbon fiber chassis. You have a hybrid chassis. A true carbon fiber chassis is a monocoque design. It is important to have the load evenly distributed with cf to reduce the chance of failure. It is very unlikely that a team would use a hybrid cf chassis as there would be no benefit. You aren't going to get the qualities of cf just a little weight reduction.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
You cannot make thin cf on a motorcycle chassis and you cannot add flex points. If you are using cf it is because you are looking for a stiff light material. Adding flex points is a very bad idea for cf because it has very little fatigue before failure. Steel breaks like a mailable substance where cf shatters the moment it is over stressed. Besides adding flex points is not the same as using a more flexible material. Steel flexes evenly like a curve. Adding flex points will give it a point a, point b, point c flex making it very unnatural and also inconsistent.

Yes you can wrap carbon fiber around other materials but then you dont have a true carbon fiber chassis. You have a hybrid chassis. A true carbon fiber chassis is a monocoque design. It is important to have the load evenly distributed with cf to reduce the chance of failure. It is very unlikely that a team would use a hybrid cf chassis as there would be no benefit. You aren't going to get the qualities of cf just a little weight reduction.
Click to expand...
I know nothing about all this and am in no doubt you know much, but the problem tor me and pretty much what you seem to be saying now when Ducati tried it in the Stoner years was that you either have a carbon fiber chassis or you don't, and you are stuck with what you bring for a race weekend or longer. The old Ducati steel trellis frame was reputedly pretty much infinitely adjustable by cutting/welding etc, but Ducati Corse which was pretty much an artisanal concern then couldn't even produce 2 bikes the same for their lead rider with the trellis frame chassis. That was nearly 15 years ago though, and doubtless technology has advanced as well as KTM being a very sophisticated and much bigger and better resourced concern than Ducati was then. Sounds like they have come to the same point as Ducati that their traditional trellis frame thing doesn't match a space frame chassis. I actually wouldn't mind them succeeding with a carbon fiber approach, much more philosophically appealing to me/more my idea of innovative technology in the premier class than aero and ride height devices.
 
Last edited:
mikesbytes said:
Doesn't sound like Rins is ready to return but I understand his logic
www.the-race.com

'The doctors asked why' - Rins explains unexpected MotoGP return

Alex Rins wasn't expected to return at Motegi - and admits his MotoGP comeback weekend may prove a short one
www.the-race.com www.the-race.com
Click to expand...

Withdrawal confirmed now. Too much pain but he's happy with the "test".

Pecco says they have solved the braking issues by going back to Austria's setup. Tried the India setup and problems reappeared, so now he knows what it is.

Bezz and Martín are going fast too, which is a good thing for the championship. Brad Binder is not renowned for his one lap pace but he smashed the all time record dating from 2015 by Lorenzo, one of the few Bridgestone records left. Aprilias look strong again. The Japanese bikes having a nightmare at home, Marc had a few hot laps deleted and then a crash, denying him access to Q2. Fabio had a brake failure and crashed in the last stages of the practices.
 
You can make CF do what you want with shape, cross section and layup.
I am a pretty keen bicycle rider. CF is able to be laterally stiff and vertically compliant by selection of shape, cross section and layup.
They absolutely can be made to ride reasonably compliantly and still resist lateral flexing when you stand up to sprint. Vertical flex and lateral rigidity.
It would be very complicated but if there is a material that you can dial in the amount of rigidity you want, where you want, and what plane you want it on, CF would be that material.

A bit here on CF flex
simpleflying.com

How Much Can The Boeing 787's Wings Flex?

The aircraft's distinctive wing flex is one of its defining features.
simpleflying.com simpleflying.com
 
Last edited:
michaelm said:
I know nothing about all this and am in no doubt you know much, but the problem tor me and pretty much what you seem to be saying now when Ducati tried it in the Stoner years was that you either have a carbon fiber chassis or you don't, and you are stuck with what you bring for a race weekend or longer. The old Ducati steel trellis frame was reputedly pretty much infinitely adjustable by cutting/welding etc, but Ducati Corse which was pretty much an artisanal concern then couldn't even produce 2 bikes the same for their lead rider with the trellis frame chassis. That was nearly 15 years ago though, and doubtless technology has advanced as well as KTM being a very sophisticated and much bigger and better resourced concern than Ducati was then. Sounds like they have come to the same point as Ducati that their traditional trellis frame thing doesn't match a space frame chassis. I actually wouldn't mind them succeeding with a carbon fiber approach, much more philosophically appealing to me/more my idea of innovative technology in the premier class than aero and ride height devices.
Click to expand...

That was also during the Bridgestone era when the hard tire carcasses, particularly the front tire carcass, was supposedly incompatible with the Ducati carbon fiber airbox and headstock. The situation may be different with Michelin tires.

Those were tough days to be a MotoGP fan. Stoner successfully bailed to HRC to win the second title he richly deserved, while Ducati ended Burgess' career, harmed Rossi's prestige, and expelled Preziosi from motorsport. This happened a few years after they sent Melandri to the nut house. The wieldy power-dense scapels that appeared on MotoGP's horizon were abruptly replaced by 1000cc battle tractors.

That was a tumultuous time.
 
warthog1 said:
You can make CF do what you want with shape, cross section and layup.
I am a pretty keen bicycle rider. CF is able to be laterally stiff and vertically compliant by selection of shape, cross section and layup.
They absolutely can be made to ride reasonably compliantly and still resist lateral flexing when you stand up to sprint. Vertical flex and lateral rigidity.
It would be very complicated but if there is a material that you can dial in the amount of rigidity you want, where you want, and what plane you want it on, CF would be that material.

A bit here on CF flex
simpleflying.com

How Much Can The Boeing 787's Wings Flex?

The aircraft's distinctive wing flex is one of its defining features.
simpleflying.com simpleflying.com
Click to expand...
You can make cf more flexible with shape absolutely, but the cost is integrity. A wing has a fairly constant amount of force compared to a motogp bike. Same with a bicycle. A wing has lift force and the flex is there to make it smoother. A bicycle has force on the bottom bracket and laterally. One big hit on a carbonfiber mtb or road bike and it becomes "dead." The integrety shatters like glass and it loses all of its stiffness and becomes nothing more than a paperweight. The amount of side, forward, and back torque on a motogp because of breaking, accelerating, and cornering is a lot more severe and complicate. You wouldn't use cf in an attempt to recreate the qualities of steel. It would be chosen because of the qualities it possesses. A lot about cf has been learned since Ducati tried this. As Michael mentioned KTM has a lot more resources including those from F1. I have no doubt they have made advancements and may have found an excellent design. I'm not sure if Binder is running it or not but his times where very good today. If he is they may have truly found something.
 

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