2012 Jerez Test Thread

[Mick D]

Farkin' double

 

[mylexicon]

Here's the "facts" from Denis Noyes:



The best of the rest of the CRT field was Espargaró followed by Came Ioda Racing Project's Danilo Petrucci (runner-up in last year’s FIM Superstock Championship). The rest of the riders on track in Jerez all posted times slower than the very fast Moto2 time of former FIM Superstock runner-up Claudio Corti on his Kalex.



How could Corti on a 120hp Moto2 set faster times than American veteran (and two-time World Superbike Champion) Colin Edwards (BMW-Suter), Michel Pirro (CBR Honda-FTR) and the two Kawasaki-FTRs of Spanish Superstock Champion Ivan Silva and Colombian Yonny Hernandez, moving up from Moto2?



The answer is corner speed. The Kalex, like the rest of the faster Moto2 machines, is a corner speed monster on a track with only one sixth gear straight. Two years ago the Moto2 bikes were unable to get under 1'44. Now Corti has equaled down to the 1/1000th of a second the pole position time of Loris Capirossi on the Ducati 990 Desmosedici in 2003. Wrestling a big(ger) MotoGP CRT with less than perfect electronics just may be harder than pushing a well-sorted little Kalex around the twisty 2.748 mile Spanish track.



And before dismissing the CRTs remember that in 2010 pundits said Moto2s would not even equal World Supersport times, let alone 250cc times. (Wrong twice.)

True, but I think Dennis is missing an important point. Aprilia have no particular incentives to spend a bunch of money on development. As long as they are clear of the other CRTs, they can rake in cash from leases. If they wanted to be complete jerks they could even cut engine supply from all teams but ART, just to monopolize the revenue stream.



In Moto2, everyone started on a spec engine, and many teams were within a second. Aprilia has 1.5 seconds in hand (with RDP), and a monopoly on the RSV4 engine. The Aprilia engineers have bigger fish to fry than other CRT competitors, but the executives may be content to fuel racing operations with CRT profits. Slower development could be the result. Slow development is what happens when competition isn't prevalent, regardless of the wives' tales Povol likes to tell. Manufacturers get lazy, and they write rules to keep other competitors away. If the rules don't make people lazy enough, they resolve to fire their own personnel as part of coordinated cost-cutting measures.

 

[Mick D]

True, but I think Dennis is missing an important point. Aprilia have no particular incentives to spend a bunch of money on development. As long as they are clear of the other CRTs, they can rake in cash from leases. If they wanted to be complete jerks they could even cut engine supply from all teams but ART, just to monopolize the revenue stream.



In Moto2, everyone started on a spec engine, and many teams were within a second. Aprilia has 1.5 seconds in hand (with RDP), and a monopoly on the RSV4 engine. The Aprilia engineers have bigger fish to fry than other CRT competitors, but the executives may be content to fuel racing operations with CRT profits. Slower development could be the result. Slow development is what happens when competition isn't prevalent, regardless of the wives' tales Povol likes to tell. Manufacturers get lazy, and they write rules to keep other competitors away. If the rules don't make people lazy enough, they resolve to fire their own personnel as part of coordinated cost-cutting measures.

Conversely Aprillia could decide they want to become a more mainstream manufacturer and ramp up their development and cash spent and become a "factory" team. Crushing Ducati and competing with the Jap big two, introducing a wider range of on-the-street products and voila, Aprillia's playing on the big stage in the spotlight...

 

[mylexicon]

Conversely Aprillia could decide they want to become a more mainstream manufacturer and ramp up their development and cash spent and become a "factory" team. Crushing Ducati and competing with the Jap big two, introducing a wider range of on-the-street products and voila, Aprillia's playing on the big stage in the spotlight...

If they became a factory team, the development rate of CRT machines would be dealt a major blow. Your scenario makes more sense if they remain a CRT and attempt to embarrass Ducati with an ART, which is basically just a Superbike (in spirit, not fact).

 

[Mick D]

If they became a factory team, the development rate of CRT machines would be dealt a major blow. Your scenario makes more sense if they remain a CRT and attempt to embarrass Ducati with an ART, which is basically just a Superbike (in spirit, not fact).

Not necessarily. It is the global optics of being perceived as an equal/rival to the big two (and not a scrappy CRT underdog) which holds the potential for market growth.

 

[bluegreen]

I am.



Matter of fact I think De Puniet is a glaring example of what is wrong with GP. If he was on Dani's bike he could even be close to Stoner ........ but no! he's the wrong nationality.

I agree.

 

[povol]

Here's the "facts" from Denis Noyes:



The best of the rest of the CRT field was Espargaró followed by Came Ioda Racing Project's Danilo Petrucci (runner-up in last year’s FIM Superstock Championship). The rest of the riders on track in Jerez all posted times slower than the very fast Moto2 time of former FIM Superstock runner-up Claudio Corti on his Kalex.



How could Corti on a 120hp Moto2 set faster times than American veteran (and two-time World Superbike Champion) Colin Edwards (BMW-Suter), Michel Pirro (CBR Honda-FTR) and the two Kawasaki-FTRs of Spanish Superstock Champion Ivan Silva and Colombian Yonny Hernandez, moving up from Moto2?



The answer is corner speed. The Kalex, like the rest of the faster Moto2 machines, is a corner speed monster on a track with only one sixth gear straight. Two years ago the Moto2 bikes were unable to get under 1'44. Now Corti has equaled down to the 1/1000th of a second the pole position time of Loris Capirossi on the Ducati 990 Desmosedici in 2003. Wrestling a big(ger) MotoGP CRT with less than perfect electronics just may be harder than pushing a well-sorted little Kalex around the twisty 2.748 mile Spanish track.



And before dismissing the CRTs remember that in 2010 pundits said Moto2s would not even equal World Supersport times, let alone 250cc times. (Wrong twice.)

May be, thats your facts. Noyes is a CRT apologist, you want facts



Here are some facts. Moto 2 machines are still woefully slower than 250 Gp machines. Im talking waaaaaaaaaaay slower.



250 Qatar race time 40 min 16 sec



Moto2 " race time 40 min 38 sec



-------------------------------------------------



250 2009 Estoril race time 44 min 04 sec



Moto2 2011 Estoril Race time 44min 46 seconds



-------------------------------------------------------------------



250 2009 Catalunya race time 41min 09 sec



Moto 2 2011 Catalunya race time 41min 38 sec



----------------------------------------------------------------

250 2009 Brno race time 41 min 06 sec



Moto 2 2011 Brno race time 41min 13 sec

----------------------------------------------------------------



250 2009 Indy race time 45min 43sec



Moto2 2011 Indy race time 45 min 50 sec



------------------------------------------------------------

250 2009 Valencia race time 44 min 10 sec



Moto2 2011 Valencia race time 46min 22 sec.



Both races classified dry, but if memory serves me last year Valencia was mixed bag of weather .





So, those are the tracks where everything was equal as far as laps run and dry track. Does Moto 2 equal 250 times, the answer is clearly no.. The 250 was a superior race bike.

 

[Mick D]

Does Moto 2 equal 250 times, the answer is clearly no...



But dividing total time by number of laps the difference is statistically and substantively insignificant given the 2-3 year difference in "similar" track conditions and a VERY mature 250cc format vs a juvenile moto2 format.

 

[corinthian]

Here are some facts. Moto 2 machines are still woefully slower than 250 Gp machines. Im talking waaaaaaaaaaay slower.

But is speed the be all and end all of the equation? Are faster bikes necessarily better for the championship? They certainly haven't always made for better racing. And much as I loved the 250s, I've had a ball watching Moto2 races.



The way I see it, these massive changes are being introduced in an attempt to solve a number of MotoGP's major problems, and even though the changes are not particularly popular with anybody my gut feeling is that at least they are trying. After being a Moto2 sceptic myself and finally coming to embrace that change, I'm willing to hold off judgement until the end of this season at least.

 

[Mick D]

Jorge Lorenzo ‏ @lorenzo99



A veces necesitas mirar lejos para planear tu destino... Sometimes you need to look far to plan your destination...







I LOVE <3 this pic!!

 

[cliche guevara]

Jorge Lorenzo ‏ @lorenzo99



A veces necesitas mirar lejos para planear tu destino... Sometimes you need to look far to plan your destination...







I LOVE <3 this pic!!

pure determination, great pic thanks for sharing mick!

 

[Mick D]

Love cloudy/rainy day pics 'cause the riders are wearing clear screens!

 

[cliche guevara]

agreed, i enjoy seeing the riders faces



is it just me or is the new yamaha a really beautiful machine this year?

 

[michaelm]

I agree.

More to the point, stoner might be where randy is now had he not rather serendipitously got his chance on what turned out to be a championship capable bike, not that this was obvious beforehand, in 2007.

 

[BarryMachine]

More to the point, stoner might be where randy is now had he not rather serendipitously got his chance on what turned out to be a championship capable bike, not that this was obvious beforehand, in 2007.

To be honest all that it took for Stoner to get motivated from day one on the Duc. was the word ........ "Factory"

 

[BarryMachine]

agreed, i enjoy seeing the riders faces



is it just me or is the new yamaha a really beautiful machine this year?

No its the best looking bike yet.

 

[povol]

But is speed the be all and end all of the equation? Are faster bikes necessarily better for the championship? They certainly haven't always made for better racing. And much as I loved the 250s, I've had a ball watching Moto2 races.



The way I see it, these massive changes are being introduced in an attempt to solve a number of MotoGP's major problems, and even though the changes are not particularly popular with anybody my gut feeling is that at least they are trying. After being a Moto2 sceptic myself and finally coming to embrace that change, I'm willing to hold off judgement until the end of this season at least.

To me, most definitely. As i have stated at least a 100 times. I dont watch GP for spec, fender banging racing.Its all about performance.

 

[povol]

More to the point, stoner might be where randy is now had he not rather serendipitously got his chance on what turned out to be a championship capable bike, not that this was obvious beforehand, in 2007.

I wouldnt call it luck that Casey got the ride in 2007. He showed vast potential in 06 and was a commodity in 07.

 

[michaelm]

I wouldnt call it luck that Casey got the ride in 2007. He showed vast potential in 06 and was a commodity in 07.

In retrospect yes, but he was also known as a crasher at the time and was ducati's 3rd or 4th choice, and signed for 1 year only with melandri already signed for the following year. I am not sure how he would have gone on an 800 lcr honda with michelins.

 

[povol]

Does Moto 2 equal 250 times, the answer is clearly no...



But dividing total time by number of laps the difference is statistically and substantively insignificant given the 2-3 year difference in "similar" track conditions and a VERY mature 250cc format vs a juvenile moto2 format.

Agree ,,just pointing out how someone like Noyes can make comments that are half truths to bolster his opinion. I also thought it was kind of funny him talking about the Kalex chassis being a corner speed monster, what does that make Suter, a corner speed mega monster. It has clearly out performed the Kalex head to head.