‘Some PRs won’t be happy until MotoGP is just a corporate event, stripped of its beauty and soul’

Interesting article, apparently KTM were not happy with Matt Oxley talking about their well known carbon chassis.

Ktm don't want us to know its bike is made of carbron fibre, but the dry weather results clearly indicate it.
I mean they can continue their path à la Ducati in 09, what an asswatering prospect, but why try to be secretive about it.

Well, Oxley has had a few bogeys on the scorecard as of late. The tire pressure scandal that wasn’t really a scandal, some fake controversy about Bagnaia’s Dennis Rodman helmet, and more recently his attempt to crybully the West because some Russian trolls or something left mean comments on FQ’s Instagram account.

In this case; however, I suspect Oxley may have no idea what’s going on. When the Rossi to Ducati saga was unfolding, I believe I said it was another horse-trading operation. The sport had 3 manufacturers with Suzuki on the way out the door for the 1000s, and Ducati were in dire straits when the Stoner to HRC deal was announced. Following Stoner’s move, the most successful manufacturer of the era and of the decade, gave up their brand ambassador and the greatest crew chief in history to help Ducati build an aluminum frame. Why? Obviously the sport was in need of help, but Yamaha are also the one legacy team on the grid that wants carbon fiber to go bye bye. Everyone else has some connection to F1 or other motorsport industry where they can borrow know-how.

Carbon fiber frames are banned, not in the rulebook but by gentlemen’s agreement, like active suspension in the 90s, before being formally banned in 2008 (IIRC?). KTM doesn’t want journos bringing attention to the carbon frame, while quoting riders about how superior it is. They sure as hell don’t want a quote from an engineer saying that carbon frames are inevitable and every team will have one. KTM have their hand in the cookie jar, and they don’t want someone to slam it shut, and they don’t want manufacturers to bail. Unlike hydraulic ride height, they can’t cut a deal to give it to everyone.

So is Oxley clueless or just playing the part? I’ll let you decide if his sudden spate of journalistic missteps are calculated misdirection or …….

mylexicon said:

Carbon fiber frames are banned, not in the rulebook but by gentlemen’s agreement

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When was this? I don't recall.

I don't recall seeing that either Lex. Aprilia have publicly tested a carbon fibre frame last yr.

mikesbytes said:

When was this? I don't recall.

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None of us recall it because it’s a logical bridge to cross the rubicon of confusion and disjointed information. It may be an extraneous bridge so people can discard if they like.

If it makes people more comfortable, just imagine that banning carbon fiber frame components is on someone’s wish list in the GPC, and KTM (among others) do not want to wake up the Bridgepoint bond stooges or the corporate board members who may exhaust political capital to define and eliminate stressed carbon components.

#22 said:

I don't recall seeing that either Lex. Aprilia have publicly tested a carbon fibre frame last yr.

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What is a stressed component? How much carbon makes something carbon fiber?

Like all gentleman’s agreements, the carbon fiber ban (if it exists) is deteriorating over time, just like the tire pressure gentlemen’s agreement. When MotoGP was 3, and all parties needed to keep their boards at bay, stressed member was understood. Now that MotoGP is 5 (previously 6), and some of the racing departments have been given free rein, the agreement is breaking down.

KTM are clearly worried that something will happen if carbon is spotlighted, and they could be exposed. If the Japanese are against, and they bail for Superbike, KTM has no product in that space. GP would lose prestige, and KTM would be stuck. Or maybe KTM doesn’t want Dorna and the PE mercenaries to get involved. They don’t want disruptive cost increases.

mylexicon said:

They don’t want disruptive cost increases.

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Like aero?

This is supposed to be prototype racing.... however I dont see the Japanese brands leaving, this industry is going electric and sooner or later GP racing will be an avenue to explore electric technology. Carbon fiber and aero technology will be a part of the future as well. So I kind of wonder if this was purposely leaked...

I see no reason to ban carbon fibre (CF). We are seeing CF being used in production motorcycles, its a commodity and I suspect it might be cheaper to experiment with over alloy.

BTW if they did ban CF, wouldn't they have to build their fairings using fibreglass?

I'm sure you could ban structural CF while leaving the fairings.

mikesbytes said:

I see no reason to ban carbon fibre (CF). We are seeing CF being used in production motorcycles, its a commodity and I suspect it might be cheaper to experiment with over alloy.

BTW if they did ban CF, wouldn't they have to build their fairings using fibreglass?

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They aren’t worried about non load-bearing pieces. They probably don’t care about the rear subframe either. They care about the pieces that directly hold the tires and engine together. Frame, forks, wheels, air box on the old Ducati, etc.

Titanium frame components were banned a long time ago. This is an area the manufacturers are not keen to explore in a motorsport setting. It will be disruptive and it has zero compatibility with production bikes. They’ve also resisted the urge to play around with passive or active frame systems that play around with tension on various frame components. I suspect that’s why shape shifters were banned. If you can control the front forks independently you can literally torque the bike into different shapes.

The main benefit of CF is that it's easier to increase flex over alloy and to control where that flex is and to what extent that flex happens, for example you can create a struct that bends more at one end than it does at the other end. As a result CF is better than alloy in some applications of frame building.

Can't see there is any benefit in using CF in parts where flex isn't wanted such as wheels, it does give a small weight reduction however there's a weight minimum for the bikes. I recall back in the day when 500's had a 100Kg weight minimum there was a lot of effort made into getting the bikes to be lighter and Honda build some CF wheels that had a serious failure and since then no one has tried CF for wheels despite the advancement in CF wheel construction techniques as can be seen in the push bike industry

mikesbytes said:

The main benefit of CF is that it's easier to increase flex over alloy and to control where that flex is and to what extent that flex happens, for example you can create a struct that bends more at one end than it does at the other end. As a result CF is better than alloy in some applications of frame building.

Can't see there is any benefit in using CF in parts where flex isn't wanted such as wheels, it does give a small weight reduction however there's a weight minimum for the bikes. I recall back in the day when 500's had a 100Kg weight minimum there was a lot of effort made into getting the bikes to be lighter and Honda build some CF wheels that had a serious failure and since then no one has tried CF for wheels despite the advancement in CF wheel construction techniques as can be seen in the push bike industry

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Well, alloy can also have variable flex by altering wall thickness or box dimensions or whatever. I’m not engineer, but I though the benefit and peril of carbon fiber is that flex can be tuned in all 3 dimensions by changing direction of the weave relative to the force acting upon it.

The benefit of carbon wheels is similar to carbon brakes—getting rid of unsprung mass. The bike handles better and the suspension is more efficient. It’s probably particularly beneficial when the bike is at full lean and the vertical forces are absorbed by the fork housing.

I’m no engineer so the specifics are fuzzy, but I’m confident that the MSMA have an uneasy relationship with stressed carbon chassis components, and that’s why KTM freaked.

Mat is either trying to sell articles or he knows the game and he’s working against CF. The UK has world class carbon chassis constructors, but I don’t know who pays his bills….maybe someone in Iwata.