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December 27th, 2017, 01:11 PM   #21
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Spies was a top-level talent. He really had his confidence knocked about in 2012 (and this game is to a huge extent about confidence), but his real level was very high. Remember when he rode the Tech 3 Yamaha in 2009 at Valencia, with no testing, and beat Dovi on the Repsol Honda? That was amazing.
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December 28th, 2017, 02:43 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
Spies was a top-level talent. He really had his confidence knocked about in 2012 (and this game is to a huge extent about confidence), but his real level was very high. Remember when he rode the Tech 3 Yamaha in 2009 at Valencia, with no testing, and beat Dovi on the Repsol Honda? That was amazing.
He was good on the Rizla Suzuki in 2008 as a wildcard too, he beat Loris at Laguna and beat both Loris and Chris Vermeulen at Indianapolis. I think there was a lot more to 2012 than meets the eye, too much was going wrong, cracked frames, food poisoning, chatter issues and it was only him this was happening to and then of course was matter of a popular Italian in his last year at Ducati becoming available.

Spies got shit on from a great height and did fuck all to warrant that as he was never anything more than professional in his time as a racer he was forced out the door because he wasn't popular enough despite the fact he was capable of winning races, I think he took a dig at Carlo Pernat in his final year at Pramac but I think the coffin lid was firmly nailed down on his future by then.
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December 28th, 2017, 02:52 AM   #23
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I rated Spies at the time and still do ............. he just got right royally screwed (the injury mention was more along the lines of how much that played on his leaving the sport).

Spies was then, and remains the only rider I have seen come from WSBK to MotoGP and do well to the level of being a podium and race winning challenger (yes, Vermuelen won one race and Bayliss won a race after going back to WSBK and getting a one off ride).

Like you, I understand the 'fan demand' of wanting a rider to race at the top level, and I sure as shit sticks to a blanket understand that riders what to compete at the top level of the sport, but likewise I also understand that many riders may choose to stay away from MotoGP due to the inherent pressures that come with it. Is the reward of having ridden MotoGP worth the risk in terms of dollars and ongoing life pressures?

Does it really open that many doors?

Whilst some will say yes, the doors are only open for the very good or elite of the sport and the money earnt is not sufficient to set=up for an ongoing life so they have to find supplementary income streams etc.

With your final paragraph I could not agree more and have often used a similar descriptive with bike racing. Just because someone dominates one category does not guarantee that they will dominate another and likewise, a rider who may not win a lot or win a title in one category could well be that brilliant rider of another.
I've always found MotoGP like Formula One to be a closed shop, you look at all the top riders they've all been in the MotoGP paddock including their formative years in the lower classes since they were 15 years old and guys who come from Superbikes are outsiders. It would be like a NASCAR driver going to F1, he wouldn't be accepted as much as somebody who came from GP2 because they're already part of the clique. It's elitism, don't get me wrong I know it happens the other way, people instantly disliked Juan Pablo Montoya when he went to NASCAR because he came from open wheel racing rather than stock cars and probably because he was foreign too.
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December 28th, 2017, 06:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntG View Post
I've always found MotoGP like Formula One to be a closed shop, you look at all the top riders they've all been in the MotoGP paddock including their formative years in the lower classes since they were 15 years old and guys who come from Superbikes are outsiders. It would be like a NASCAR driver going to F1, he wouldn't be accepted as much as somebody who came from GP2 because they're already part of the clique. It's elitism, don't get me wrong I know it happens the other way, people instantly disliked Juan Pablo Montoya when he went to NASCAR because he came from open wheel racing rather than stock cars and probably because he was foreign too.

To be totally honest, my theory is that the closed shop is real as at the very top of near all sports, the sport part is forgotten and it becomes business first, second and thirdly which means that as with all top end business it is dog eat dog and who cares about the people burnt or hurt on the way.

If you look at the true top end of all sports, the vast majority have a somewhat closed shop approach with eligibility rules designed to make access difficult, target markets dictating the competitors, sports administrators with self serving interest, media with agendas etc. But you then drop a rung or two and whilst still a business the sports element is again present where you see a friendlier atmosphere, more approachable athletes and so forth.

Money drives all unfortunately and for mine, Spies is a great example of talent that has been wasted/lost to the sport (fans) in the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

Now, I do not believe that Spies would have won a number of world titles in MGP as the field is just to strong and he is not a Marquez, but he was (IMO) at a level easily comparable to a number of factory riders
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December 29th, 2017, 08:14 AM   #25
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Quote:
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To be totally honest, my theory is that the closed shop is real as at the very top of near all sports, the sport part is forgotten and it becomes business first, second and thirdly which means that as with all top end business it is dog eat dog and who cares about the people burnt or hurt on the way.

If you look at the true top end of all sports, the vast majority have a somewhat closed shop approach with eligibility rules designed to make access difficult, target markets dictating the competitors, sports administrators with self serving interest, media with agendas etc. But you then drop a rung or two and whilst still a business the sports element is again present where you see a friendlier atmosphere, more approachable athletes and so forth.

Money drives all unfortunately and for mine, Spies is a great example of talent that has been wasted/lost to the sport (fans) in the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

Now, I do not believe that Spies would have won a number of world titles in MGP as the field is just to strong and he is not a Marquez, but he was (IMO) at a level easily comparable to a number of factory riders
Which as far as I can make out, has to make you wonder why Dorna are pushing for more series. I think it takes on a rather nasty flavour when they encourage more talent to ride, when the ultimate outcome is the deselecton of 90% of the riders as "not good enough" when in truth they are but don't make Dorna enough $$$.
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December 30th, 2017, 01:58 PM   #26
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Ben said himself that he did not have the speed to run with the top 5-6 guys in GP week in week out and win a title. Said he was good enough that on a given day he could win a race or like Nicky could sneak up and steal a title. As far as Rea, these guys want the factory ride because they come with factory checks. SBK as far as I know still isnít paying the nice salaries of the early 2000ís. Iím guessing Rae is making somewhere in the neighborhood of a Tech 3 rider, good money but not the big time , around 800k to a mil. I wouldnít leave a prohibitive favorite machine with the wins and titles for a 6 th place bike either , but thats his path if he wants a shot at the 3-4 million check.
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January 2nd, 2018, 04:14 AM   #27
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Ben said himself that he did not have the speed to run with the top 5-6 guys in GP week in week out and win a title. Said he was good enough that on a given day he could win a race or like Nicky could sneak up and steal a title. As far as Rea, these guys want the factory ride because they come with factory checks. SBK as far as I know still isnít paying the nice salaries of the early 2000ís. Iím guessing Rae is making somewhere in the neighborhood of a Tech 3 rider, good money but not the big time , around 800k to a mil. I wouldnít leave a prohibitive favorite machine with the wins and titles for a 6 th place bike either , but thats his path if he wants a shot at the 3-4 million check.
A million a year plus bonuses I read somewhere, how true that is I don't know.
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June 13th, 2018, 01:35 AM   #28
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Rea is also quoted as saying he "cant wait" to race WSBK at home in N. Ireland / Ireland; there is a new circuit (Lake Torrent) being developed at the moment in County Tyrone, with a contract to host WBSK races from 2019. Whether it happens or not is still up for debate, but at the moment it seems to be, er, on track.
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June 13th, 2018, 03:10 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntG View Post
I've always found MotoGP like Formula One to be a closed shop, you look at all the top riders they've all been in the MotoGP paddock including their formative years in the lower classes since they were 15 years old and guys who come from Superbikes are outsiders. It would be like a NASCAR driver going to F1, he wouldn't be accepted as much as somebody who came from GP2 because they're already part of the clique. It's elitism, don't get me wrong I know it happens the other way, people instantly disliked Juan Pablo Montoya when he went to NASCAR because he came from open wheel racing rather than stock cars and probably because he was foreign too.
I agree that is the way it is now, but not always, as I am sure you are aware. In the heyday of the 500 class the 250 guys often had trouble adapting to the savage 500 2-strokes, and the great American golden era riders as well as Gardner and Doohan basically came from a superbike backgtound.

Last edited by michaelm; June 13th, 2018 at 05:26 AM.
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