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August 11th, 2010, 09:09 PM   #1
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Valentine: BSB needs a control ECU



Good idea? Bad idea?
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August 12th, 2010, 06:53 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by mylexicon View Post
If you cant run with the big dogs,stay on the porch



God i will be glad when the economy turns around. I am so tired of hearing 'Lets dumb down the series so i can compete', i could puke. BSB is on its way to becoming as irrelevant as North American Superbike racing, and thats pretty god damned irrelevant. Canadian Superbike, which has always been an afterthought, was just stupid this year. Im not sure why they even bothered. My disdain for the AMA is no secret, but if you look at the crowds, im not the only one. I will say the racing, though manufactured, has been pretty good, but that was predictable.So to answer your question, bad idea. WSBK's popularity is at or near its all time high and i believe its the performance of the machines that has brought about this resurgence . People are getting on board for WSBK because they see very similar performance from a team that has a 5 million dollar budget, compared to a 20-25 million budget for a top GP team. Race fans like close racing, but not at the expense of performance.If the possibility of broken records do not exist, you will lose a portion of your fan base. There is nothing like hearing the words " new lap record" over the PA system, its what racing is all about.
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August 12th, 2010, 03:17 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
If you cant run with the big dogs,stay on the porch



God i will be glad when the economy turns around. I am so tired of hearing 'Lets dumb down the series so i can compete', i could puke. BSB is on its way to becoming as irrelevant as North American Superbike racing, and thats pretty god damned irrelevant. Canadian Superbike, which has always been an afterthought, was just stupid this year. Im not sure why they even bothered. My disdain for the AMA is no secret, but if you look at the crowds, im not the only one. I will say the racing, though manufactured, has been pretty good, but that was predictable.So to answer your question, bad idea. WSBK's popularity is at or near its all time high and i believe its the performance of the machines that has brought about this resurgence . People are getting on board for WSBK because they see very similar performance from a team that has a 5 million dollar budget, compared to a 20-25 million budget for a top GP team. Race fans like close racing, but not at the expense of performance.If the possibility of broken records do not exist, you will lose a portion of your fan base. There is nothing like hearing the words " new lap record" over the PA system, its what racing is all about.


I don't see the point either. A spec ECU alone does not mean that costs will go down or fewer data engineers will be required. If they are planning on banning all electronics other than basic fuel injection, it sounds like fun, but seeing as everything in the sport is designed for factory electronics, I'm not sure what the end result would be. Would Pirelli even have the right compounds if the tires needed to be 20% harder?



Povol, I find it interesting that you are in love with cost-effective, dumbed-down version of MotoGP (WSBK), but you can't love a dumbed down version of WSBK. What was it Edmondson said? Comfort zone of a gnat? Are you a middle child? That would explain everything.



Electronics allow hamfisted midgets to open the throttle 100% when the bike is at full lean. Electronics allows the untalented to ride with the legends. Ask Mladin. He was never at a loss for words when outlining the things that allowed the untalented AMA hacks to stay in his wake. Electronic rider aids and stock suspension were always at the top of his list.
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August 12th, 2010, 05:24 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by mylexicon View Post
I don't see the point either. A spec ECU alone does not mean that costs will go down or fewer data engineers will be required. If they are planning on banning all electronics other than basic fuel injection, it sounds like fun, but seeing as everything in the sport is designed for factory electronics, I'm not sure what the end result would be. Would Pirelli even have the right compounds if the tires needed to be 20% harder?



Povol, I find it interesting that you are in love with cost-effective, dumbed-down version of MotoGP (WSBK), but you can't love a dumbed down version of WSBK. What was it Edmondson said? Comfort zone of a gnat? Are you a middle child? That would explain everything.



Electronics allow hamfisted midgets to open the throttle 100% when the bike is at full lean. Electronics allows the untalented to ride with the legends. Ask Mladin. He was never at a loss for words when outlining the things that allowed the untalented AMA hacks to stay in his wake. Electronic rider aids and stock suspension were always at the top of his list.
There is only one Moto GP series that im aware of. If someone started another GP prototype series that was 2 seconds a lap slower, i wouldnt like it either. There are numerous Superbike series around the world, and one has got it right. Sponsors are going to give up the money for something the fans will pay to see, not some clowns vision of what will make him more money.How you can call WSBK , a production based series, a dumbed down version of GP prototype racing is beyond me. Its apples and oranges If i were Dorna, i would be embarrassed and ashamed to admit that 15-20 million dollars per team, a year, bought me a half second in performance.
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August 12th, 2010, 08:44 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
There is only one Moto GP series that im aware of. If someone started another GP prototype series that was 2 seconds a lap slower, i wouldnt like it either. There are numerous Superbike series around the world, and one has got it right. Sponsors are going to give up the money for something the fans will pay to see, not some clowns vision of what will make him more money.How you can call WSBK , a production based series, a dumbed down version of GP prototype racing is beyond me. Its apples and oranges If i were Dorna, i would be embarrassed and ashamed to admit that 15-20 million dollars per team, a year, bought me a half second in performance.


But WSBK should not be embarrassed that BSB Evo's (stock engines with spec electronics) can lap within a second of full WSBK spec? This gets more interesting all the time.
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August 13th, 2010, 01:06 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mylexicon View Post
But WSBK should not be embarrassed that BSB Evo's (stock engines with spec electronics) can lap within a second of full WSBK spec? This gets more interesting all the time.
Before i called bullshit, i quickly looked at WSBK times from Brands Hatch in 2008, the last time they raced there.

The pole was 1.25.656

Jump to 2010

The highest qualifying EVO bike at Brands Hatch

1.28.427 Now im certainly no math major, but that looks like a hell of a lot more than a second. Factor in the progress the last 2 years of WSBK and that figure jumps to well over 3 seconds.



So i am now officially calling bullshit

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August 13th, 2010, 05:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by povol View Post
Before i called bullshit, i quickly looked at WSBK times from Brands Hatch in 2008, the last time they raced there.

The pole was 1.25.656

Jump to 2010

The highest qualifying EVO bike at Brands Hatch

1.28.427 Now im certainly no math major, but that looks like a hell of a lot more than a second. Factor in the progress the last 2 years of WSBK and that figure jumps to well over 3 seconds.



So i am now officially calling bullshit

-


No need to compare it to world superbikes. They race WSBK equipment in BSB. The talent level of the riders and teams, as well as the weather conditions, are much closer. If you look at the BSB website they even show the best laps for both classes right next to one another. The gaps are between 1-2 seconds. Evo bikes race in traffic and most of them don't have full SBK chassis b/c they can't afford the top suspension or the factory swingarm. If you read about most of the teams either on their websites or in the press conferences, most of them are running slightly hotted up Superstock bikes.



It is more than 1 second, but it's close in the grand scheme of things.
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August 13th, 2010, 08:56 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by mylexicon View Post
No need to compare it to world superbikes. They race WSBK equipment in BSB. The talent level of the riders and teams, as well as the weather conditions, are much closer. If you look at the BSB website they even show the best laps for both classes right next to one another. The gaps are between 1-2 seconds. Evo bikes race in traffic and most of them don't have full SBK chassis b/c they can't afford the top suspension or the factory swingarm. If you read about most of the teams either on their websites or in the press conferences, most of them are running slightly hotted up Superstock bikes.



It is more than 1 second, but it's close in the grand scheme of things.




First it was within a second, now its 1-2 seconds.



2.7 seconds difference in Qualifying between BSB and EVO



In Race 1



7 Michael LAVERTY GBR Suzuki - Relentless Suzuki by TAS 4 1:26.467 95.79 mph 154.16 kph

1.939

56 E Hudson KENNAUGH RSA Aprilia - Splitlath Motorsport 4 1:28.406 93.69 mph 150.78 kph



Race 2



6 Michael RUTTER GBR Ducati - RidersMotorcycles.Com 3 1:26.059 96.24 mph 154.89 kph

2.311

19 E Steve BROGAN GBR BMW - Jentin Racing - BMW Motorrad 5 1:28.370 93.73 mph 150.84 kph





Lets call it a little over 2 seconds, an eternity in racing. If GP was 2 seconds a lap faster than WSBK, we wouldnt be having this conversation
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August 13th, 2010, 09:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by povol View Post
First it was within a second, now its 1-2 seconds.



2.7 seconds difference in Qualifying between BSB and EVO



In Race 1



7 Michael LAVERTY GBR Suzuki - Relentless Suzuki by TAS 4 1:26.467 95.79 mph 154.16 kph

1.939

56 E Hudson KENNAUGH RSA Aprilia - Splitlath Motorsport 4 1:28.406 93.69 mph 150.78 kph



Race 2



6 Michael RUTTER GBR Ducati - RidersMotorcycles.Com 3 1:26.059 96.24 mph 154.89 kph

2.311

19 E Steve BROGAN GBR BMW - Jentin Racing - BMW Motorrad 5 1:28.370 93.73 mph 150.84 kph





Lets call it a little over 2 seconds, an eternity in racing. If GP was 2 seconds a lap faster than WSBK, we wouldnt be having this conversation


IIRC the Evo bikes did finish within 1 second of the SBKs this season, and most of the races are between 1-2 seconds. All this from underfunded privateers who race in traffic without the actual factory chassis/suspension parts.



If the virtue of racing is slightly slower bikes at a fraction of the cost, EVO is your ticket. Personally, I only think the bikes should be slower and cheaper when serious budgetary problems exist or the FIM is having problems with product cannibalism, but if you think WSBK is better b/c it's slower and more cost-effective than GP, who am I to disagree?
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August 15th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by povol View Post
WSBK's popularity is at or near its all time high and i believe its the performance of the machines that has brought about this resurgence . People are getting on board for WSBK because they see very similar performance from a team that has a 5 million dollar budget, compared to a 20-25 million budget for a top GP team. Race fans like close racing, but not at the expense of performance.If the possibility of broken records do not exist, you will lose a portion of your fan base. There is nothing like hearing the words " new lap record" over the PA system, its what racing is all about.


I'm willing to bet that the competitiveness and the ratcheting up of factory efforts in WSBK have more to do with the series' resurgence. The series' fortunes have come at the same time Moto GP's grids are shrinking. I think we will know more if the big four factories return to AMA racing with factory teams and promotion, and the crowds still do not return.



Who is to say that the smaller crowds at AMA races aren't due to disgust or lack of credibility in the organization after last year's disastrous display of leadership?
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