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September 2nd, 2021, 04:37 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Respectfully disagree. None of the so-called "Aliens" achieved greatness with raw speed alone. Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo etc, didn't depend on a good holeshot, followed by running away from the pack. They were all great both at coming from a few rows back, and being able to fearlessly re-pass, a quality Vinales has not exhibited with any regularity.
You are a fan which is entirely reasonable given some of those wins. I don't think Dovi or anyone else would have beaten MM in a last lap stoush with him on the 2014 Honda and the opponents also on 2014 equipment though. The latter day Honda has been a pig built for speed alone and not really for dogfighting, not that this is anyone's problem other than Honda's and perhaps MM's who has presumably had some influence on the bike's characteristics.

Last edited by michaelm; September 2nd, 2021 at 09:56 PM.
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September 2nd, 2021, 10:41 PM   #52
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Last edited by misfit; September 3rd, 2021 at 12:26 AM.
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September 2nd, 2021, 10:42 PM   #53
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I am not a fan of straw man arguments. You made, what I thought was an erroneous comparison between Dovi and Vinales, and I was disagreeing by pointing out the dissimilarity between the two, in that while Dovi tho not an “alien” was more like Rossi, Stoner et al, in that his victories such as they are, have not been dependent on raw speed alone.
I made no straw man. You misunderstood. I was not making the sort of comparison you thought. I simply opined that Dovi’s good weekends are on a background of too many average ones. Vinales similarly has great weekends on a backdrop of too many average ones. That’s where any comparison I made ends. Why they each have this issue, what their strengths are as racers, is something else to look at. On this latter question, I do feel Maverick depends on raw pace to get results since he can be extremely quick on a good day leading to typically dominant victories, but this is on a backdrop of too many weekends when his pace is strangely average, leading to average results. He is not known to fight his way through the field and showing the sort of race craft and cunning that are in contrast, Dovi’s strong points.

This latter analysis doesn’t take away from the simple similarity in that we have two riders who are, I think, above average riders on the MotoGP grid, but who each exhibit an inconsistency with outstanding performances which do not go well with a championship winning campaign. They will be championship contenders and almost rans. We will have stories to tell of how close they came to winning a championship but never quite did.

Last edited by misfit; September 3rd, 2021 at 01:07 AM.
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September 3rd, 2021, 04:44 AM   #54
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OMG! I wasn’t implying you were guilty of a straw man argument. It was that it seemed you were accusing me of that.
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September 3rd, 2021, 05:04 AM   #55
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I made no straw man. You misunderstood. I was not making the sort of comparison you thought. I simply opined that Dovi’s good weekends are on a background of too many average ones. Vinales similarly has great weekends on a backdrop of too many average ones. That’s where any comparison I made ends. Why they each have this issue, what their strengths are as racers, is something else to look at. On this latter question, I do feel Maverick depends on raw pace to get results since he can be extremely quick on a good day leading to typically dominant victories, but this is on a backdrop of too many weekends when his pace is strangely average, leading to average results. He is not known to fight his way through the field and showing the sort of race craft and cunning that are in contrast, Dovi’s strong points.

This latter analysis doesn’t take away from the simple similarity in that we have two riders who are, I think, above average riders on the MotoGP grid, but who each exhibit an inconsistency with outstanding performances which do not go well with a championship winning campaign. They will be championship contenders and almost rans. We will have stories to tell of how close they came to winning a championship but never quite did.
We are in agreement about both riders. A bad result for an elite rider in a title winning year with no mishaps is 4th, maybe 5th, not struggling to have the pace to make the top 10.
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September 3rd, 2021, 05:27 AM   #56
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OMG! I wasn’t implying you were guilty of a straw man argument. It was that it seemed you were accusing me of that.
Alrighty.
OK.
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