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September 1st, 2021, 04:25 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
Marquez is the best I have seen in ~ 40 years of watching the sport.
To beat him like that, multiple times, is pretty impressive.
In a nutshell.

When folks naysay him, I think of him making multiple absolutely impossible passes at Motegi in the rain, against Marquez at the top of his game, and I think - How quickly people forget.
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September 1st, 2021, 09:04 PM   #42
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I hadn't particularly rated him either.
Those last lap dices he had with Marquez and came out on top, changed my opinion.
Marquez is the best I have seen in ~ 40 years of watching the sport.
To beat him like that, multiple times, is pretty impressive.
It was IMO very telling that of those last lap battles all the ones Dovi won were at tracks that heavily favoured the Duc. But beating Marquez in a last lap battle multiple times is still one hell of a boast that currently no other rider is able to replicate.

That pass at Motegi for the win might be the best overtake I have seen. It felt like he came from halfway down the straight to outbrake him in the wet when he could have quite easily settled for a commendable second after pushing Marquez to the limit on Honda's track.
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September 2nd, 2021, 12:06 AM   #43
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It was IMO very telling that of those last lap battles all the ones Dovi won were at tracks that heavily favoured the Duc. But beating Marquez in a last lap battle multiple times is still one hell of a boast that currently no other rider is able to replicate.

That pass at Motegi for the win might be the best overtake I have seen. It felt like he came from halfway down the straight to outbrake him in the wet when he could have quite easily settled for a commendable second after pushing Marquez to the limit on Honda's track.
Great passes using great racecraft and choosing where the characteristics of the Ducati helped him giving MM no chance to recover.

I donít know about MMís racecraft other than his ability to preserve tires/ride on worn tires. He mainly relies on raw pace otherwise imo, including one lap pace and was capable formerly of a close to impossibly fast/banzai qualifying lap or last lap, and he is or was also a decisive passer, perhaps at times along the lines of Ayrton Senna ie let me pass or we will collide. So great credit to Dovi for being able to pass him when he is in last lap mode, but I personally donít consider MMís own last lap racecraft to be exceptional
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September 2nd, 2021, 01:07 AM   #44
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All credit to Dovi for showing his mettle and ability to ride with cunning in the heat of dog fight with MM. However, the amount of times I have witnessed this is too low for me to rate him particularly highly. It’s no different, IMO, to Vinales and his raw pace. Yes, he can be unstoppable on his good day but they have been so relatively few and far between that he is now in the position that he is. Of course, his blowing a fuse in frustration with his team clearly blaming them for his lack of showing, contributed to his current debacle.

I expect Dovi to continue to be just the way he had been. Great rides on the background of a majority of average ones. If a team recruits him mainly for his experience and ability to give feedback that helps improve the bikes performance, then I can certainly see with that. But for championship contention? I don’t think so.
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September 2nd, 2021, 11:17 AM   #45
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All credit to Dovi for showing his mettle and ability to ride with cunning in the heat of dog fight with MM. However, the amount of times I have witnessed this is too low for me to rate him particularly highly.
My thoughts exactly. Dovi seems to get a pass for occasionally showing his speed, when others get chastised for it.
Also, for me, he had 10 years in the sport before he became competitive, including 3 on a Factory Honda and he was comprehensively outperformed by his team mates.
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I expect Dovi to continue to be just the way he had been. Great rides on the background of a majority of average ones. If a team recruits him mainly for his experience and ability to give feedback that helps improve the bikes performance, then I can certainly see with that. But for championship contention? I don’t think so.
That's the thing. His feedback will be useless because he will be on a B spec (i.e. 2 yr old) M1.
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September 2nd, 2021, 11:26 AM   #46
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That's the thing. His feedback will be useless because he will be on a B spec (i.e. 2 yr old) M1.
I don't think entirely useless. At one point, Morbidelli's experience with the older spec bike was being used to compare the new with the old to assess development direction. Additionally, I'm inclined to think data and experience with the tyres can be translated to some extent.
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September 2nd, 2021, 11:40 AM   #47
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All credit to Dovi for showing his mettle and ability to ride with cunning in the heat of dog fight with MM. However, the amount of times I have witnessed this is too low for me to rate him particularly highly. Itís no different, IMO, to Vinales and his raw pace. Yes, he can be unstoppable on his good day but they have been so relatively few and far between that he is now in the position that he is. Of course, his blowing a fuse in frustration with his team clearly blaming them for his lack of showing, contributed to his current debacle.

I expect Dovi to continue to be just the way he had been. Great rides on the background of a majority of average ones. If a team recruits him mainly for his experience and ability to give feedback that helps improve the bikes performance, then I can certainly see with that. But for championship contention? I donít think so.
Respectfully disagree. None of the so-called "Aliens" achieved greatness with raw speed alone. Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo etc, didn't depend on a good holeshot, followed by running away from the pack. They were all great both at coming from a few rows back, and being able to fearlessly re-pass, a quality Vinales has not exhibited with any regularity.
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September 2nd, 2021, 12:42 PM   #48
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Respectfully disagree. None of the so-called "Aliens" achieved greatness with raw speed alone. Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo etc, didn't depend on a good holeshot, followed by running away from the pack. They were all great both at coming from a few rows back, and being able to fearlessly re-pass, a quality Vinales has not exhibited with any regularity.
No disagreement since we are commenting on different things. I never claimed or implied your initial statement.
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September 2nd, 2021, 01:36 PM   #49
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No disagreement since we are commenting on different things. I never claimed or implied your initial statement.
I am not a fan of straw man arguments. You made, what I thought was an erroneous comparison between Dovi and Vinales, and I was disagreeing by pointing out the dissimilarity between the two, in that while Dovi tho not an ďalienĒ was more like Rossi, Stoner et al, in that his victories such as they are, have not been dependent on raw speed alone.
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September 2nd, 2021, 03:00 PM   #50
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My thoughts exactly. Dovi seems to get a pass for occasionally showing his speed, when others get chastised for it.
Also, for me, he had 10 years in the sport before he became competitive, including 3 on a Factory Honda and he was comprehensively outperformed by his team mates.


That's the thing. His feedback will be useless because he will be on a B spec (i.e. 2 yr old) M1.

Actually, the A spec bike is the older bike.
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