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August 28th, 2021, 12:17 AM   #21
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Plenty of comment about Pedrosa's role in improving the KTM since his move there also.

Such a small guy trying to race a heavier and powerful beast such as a MotoGP bike would need to get the bike working reasonably well. He aint going to have the size and strength to make the bike do what it doesn't want to, to the degree others can.

A fair bit to do with the current tyres too, but the Honda has not made improvement by losing his input.
Some riders are very capable of providing direction to develop the bike, I agree.
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August 28th, 2021, 12:48 AM   #22
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To be fair to Dovi what he showed with those victories against MM was his racecraft, preserving his tires to the end of races, working through the field, and making decisive passes at a point where he could use what the Ducati had mostly giving MM no opportunity to come back at him.

I wouldn't acclaim MM's race craft, to me he mostly relies on his sheer pace including one lap pace which in his pomp (which imo may not be over/may return) seemed to involve him riding beyond what the limits of the bike would have been for most if not all other riders, including riding on worn tires, although I would guess he must be able to preserve tires as well. Stoner and Lorenzo were mostly more sheer pace guys imo as well. Rossi on the other hand nearly won an 8th/10th title at age 36 based more on racecraft than the sheer pace he had for much of his career.

I agree with Birdman's take on MM, as I do with most of his assessments in regard to bike racing, that MM's method has been to find the limits of the tire and ride at that limit, this being hard to do given the vagaries/variance of the current Michelin tires which is very likely not helping as others have said on this thread.
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August 28th, 2021, 05:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
Small gradual steps that had a sudden and marked improvement from between season end and season start. I would say that 1 win in 2016 to 6 wins in 2017 is not a gradual improvement but a sudden, sharp improvement which based on the 4 previous years is not and does not support gradual steps .......... nope, something serious and significant occurred with Ducati between season 2016 and 2017 which is when Gabbarini returned and Lorenzo arrived.



Conversely, if Dovi is so good then why did he only have 1 win in 4 years prior to Gabbarini's arrival at Ducati?

Lets be realistic, Dovi had 7 years on full factory supported rides leading up to 2017 and produced 2 wins (not counting the Scott Honda season to tech3 as full factory) and then went haywire with 10 wins across the next 2 seasons (2017 & 2018).

Likewise, capability to develop does not mean immediate improvements for yourself but in saying that, who was the better rider in late 2017?
Yes - small gradual steps. The atom bomb wasn’t built in a day, but when the project reached completion, it turned to to be the pinnacle of destructive weapons. When it blew Hiroshima off the map, nobody remarked on it being a “sudden sharp improvement”.

To be sure, my post was not about Dovi being more accomplished than Lorenzo, only that he was there at Ducati through a lot of lean years during which a seemingly infinite number of small refinements were tried, all of which laid down the foundation upon which Gabbarini et al, were able to bring to a head. Whereas from some people’s perspective, Gabbarini and Lorenzo just dropped by casually and pulled a rabbit out of their hat, a whole new bike from scratch, which just isn’t realistic.

After all those seasons doing the donkey work for Ducati, who more than Dovi deserved to benefit from the cumulative development work topped off with Gabbarini’s changes?

I can’t help but admire his work ethic, as compared to say Rossi who deserted Honda, cried like a baby till he got Bridgestones mid-contract, and myriad other primadonnas that constantly bitched and moaned about their bikes not being perfect.

In summary: Dovi and Co. baked the cake.
Gabbarini and Lorenzo putting the cherry on top doesn’t buy them sole bragging rights for the success of the current bike. R&D progress is cumulative. It’s a team effort.
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Last edited by Keshav; August 28th, 2021 at 04:43 PM.
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August 28th, 2021, 03:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
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In summary: Dovi and Co. baked the cake.
Gabbarini and Lorenzo putting the cherry on top doesn’t buy them sole bragging rights
for the success of the current bike. R&D progress is cumulative. It’s a team effort.
Absolutely it doesn't, but likewise 4 years of slow progress with 1 result followed by a remarkable improvement does not also mean that the 4 slow years reaped that result, contributed yes but did not reap.

You have your view, I have mine but and I do not see Dovi as person responsible for the 2017 Ducati ............. I do see Lorenzo and Gabbarini having a greater part to play, for alternate reasons

Gabbarini because he bought direction and structure that had worked during his years at HRC back to Ducati and is a damn good engineer/tech.

Lorenzo because he bought the mindset of a winner. He lit the fire under Dovi because Dovi felt snubbed by the signing, but Lorenzo also bought direction and the ego to demand/push for things (much like Rossi does). Let us also not forget that since Lorenzo left Yamaha and moved, the Ducati results improved, Yamaha became more inconsistent all of which illustrates to me the 'weirdness' of the HRC animal

Btw, nowhere do I not say team effort, afterall not all team mates are borne of equal ability, but I readily will say that some contributions are better than others
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Last edited by Gaz; August 28th, 2021 at 03:20 PM.
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August 28th, 2021, 04:42 PM   #25
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Absolutely it doesn't, but likewise 4 years of slow progress with 1 result followed by a remarkable improvement does not also mean that the 4 slow years reaped that result, contributed yes but did not reap.

You have your view, I have mine but and I do not see Dovi as person responsible for the 2017 Ducati ............. I do see Lorenzo and Gabbarini having a greater part to play, for alternate reasons

Gabbarini because he bought direction and structure that had worked during his years at HRC back to Ducati and is a damn good engineer/tech.

Lorenzo because he bought the mindset of a winner. He lit the fire under Dovi because Dovi felt snubbed by the signing, but Lorenzo also bought direction and the ego to demand/push for things (much like Rossi does). Let us also not forget that since Lorenzo left Yamaha and moved, the Ducati results improved, Yamaha became more inconsistent all of which illustrates to me the 'weirdness' of the HRC animal

Btw, nowhere do I not say team effort, afterall not all team mates are borne of equal ability, but I readily will say that some contributions are better than others
By continually referring to 2017 you are, if I may re-use my example, solely focused on the cherry and ignoring the big-ass cake it was resting on.

The value of a winner mind-set is a pretty hard to quantify, especially in light of the fact that Dovi and Marquez both won 6 races in 2017, and Lorenzo - Zero.

As to the decline of Yamaha, most would agree, that was a result of Rossi's finger being so deep in the pie, what with all his efforts to get Yamaha to make a bike that would help him win despite his failing abilities. And at a certain point, it became pretty clear, that Yamaha in general, just pretty much lost their way, a problem that lasted a few years.
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August 28th, 2021, 05:02 PM   #26
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By continually referring to 2017 you are, if I may re-use my example, solely focused on the cherry and ignoring the big-ass cake it was resting on.

The value of a winner mind-set is a pretty hard to quantify, especially in light of the fact that Dovi and Marquez both won 6 races in 2017, and Lorenzo - Zero.

As to the decline of Yamaha, most would agree, that was a result of Rossi's finger being so deep in the pie, what with all his efforts to get Yamaha to make a bike that would help him win despite his failing abilities. And at a certain point, it became pretty clear, that Yamaha in general, just pretty much lost their way, a problem that lasted a few years.
The whole thing is a contentious point, and was between Lorenzo and Dovi themselves who pretty much publicly brawled over the issue along the lines where yours and my (and I think Gaz's as well) opinions differ. As I have said Gigi the designer of the bike considered Lorenzo more important, and if the Lorenzo Yamaha worked for other riders then it worked for other riders.

The importance of what riders contribute in general is a separate question in regard to which I have less disagreement with you. I think though what it came down to was that Dovi wanted a title winner's salary when Gigi considered that it was his bike which was most important, and Dovi had indeed looked no better than he had always been in the years prior to 2017, with it being a toss up between keeping him or Iannone one year iirc. Ducati's attitude in general has ever been thus, which in the circumstances of last year (mainly MM's absence) may have cost them a title with Dovi on their bike. Obviously Ducati management thought they were paying Lorenzo too much to a greater extent, and he did nothing to convince them otherwise until the die was already cast.
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Last edited by michaelm; August 28th, 2021 at 06:37 PM.
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August 28th, 2021, 05:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
By continually referring to 2017 you are, if I may re-use my example, solely focused on the cherry and ignoring the big-ass cake it was resting on.

The value of a winner mind-set is a pretty hard to quantify, especially in light of the fact that Dovi and Marquez both won 6 races in 2017, and Lorenzo - Zero.

As to the decline of Yamaha, most would agree, that was a result of Rossi's finger being so deep in the pie, what with all his efforts to get Yamaha to make a bike that would help him win despite his failing abilities. And at a certain point, it became pretty clear, that Yamaha in general, just pretty much lost their way, a problem that lasted a few years.

Nope, it is interpretation.

I acknowledge the work done prior to 2017, but I also fully recognise the sudden change that occurred on the arrival of 2 other factors.

Winners mindset is everything for success but where was Dovi's prior to 2017 where after a number of years on factory machinery he had 2 wins?

Nope, the arrival of Lorenzo started a fire (said it at the time) and the arrival of Gabbarini facilitated the fire by providing greater prowess in the back office. Yes, the work prior helped but in many sports such a sudden improvement would raise eyebrows.

With Yamaha, interesting how we now blame Rossi and I for one accept that he played a significant part in the direction that the factory headed on his return in 2017, but likewise Lorenzo (and a tech or two) left, none of which should be under-estimated as for the 2 years Rossi was gone, you can bet your house everything went Lorenzo's way

We wont agree as I readily admit to not now or ever really seeing Dovi as anywhere near the level of the top guys (and personally, I suspect a lot is attitude). To me, Dovi's best year, the year that really sticks in my mind where I thought this guy could ride was his tech3 year, otherwise to me he has been on the periphery of my radar (that is within context of MotoGp riders of course)
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August 28th, 2021, 05:19 PM   #28
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I don't know if this needs saying, but sometimes text typed up on the internet doesn't always convey emotions all that well, so to be clear to Gaz, I enjoy dialoging with you and always appreciate alternate points of view. I've said it before, I have no problem being swayed to a better understanding of this sport.
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August 28th, 2021, 05:24 PM   #29
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The importance of what riders contribute in general is a separate question on which I have less disagreement with you.
My take here and where I agree but disagree is in the rider input to development.

Have always said that no rider today will tell the engineers how to fix an issue or how to improve performance, and likewise no rider will deliberately lead development of a bike to make it more ridable to his/her competitors (test riders are the exception)

Nope, to me development of a bike is rider based in terms of results and that rider's position within the heirachy.

You can bet that HRC use Marc's data to determine direction then they would Pol, likewise it was Dovi over Ianonne, Lorenzo over Spies and so forth which means that they lead the development. It is also why I wondre now for Ducati and Suzuki as examples where we have no clear ride leader. Where will they go in the next year or so?

What then happens is that once that lead rider leaves, the development focus has to change and that takes time as the development route is then based on another's data and so forth. Neverending cycle.

Last edited by Gaz; August 28th, 2021 at 05:27 PM. Reason: typo
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August 28th, 2021, 05:26 PM   #30
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I don't know if this needs saying, but sometimes text typed up on the internet doesn't always convey emotions all that well, so to be clear to Gaz, I enjoy dialoging with you and always appreciate alternate points of view. I've said it before, I have no problem being swayed to a better understanding of this sport.
All good man, I have no issue debating but will pull the pin at some time else we end up like the years past where Talpa, Jumkie, You, me and a myriad of others wrote volume after volume which bored the shit out of a lot of people who come here for the bants
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