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August 27th, 2021, 04:44 PM   #11
Gaz
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Originally Posted by MdubSTYLIE View Post
I would like to see him back at honda to help turn that bike into a winner. Their current crop of riders aren't it. They need a vet to help balance that bike and make it something Marc can win on again. I am well aware that there is no chance of that but it would be in Hondas best interest.
Hate to be that guy ..............................

But is Dovi really that capable of achieving this outcome?

I mean, he seems to get attributed by some (not saying you) with the success of the Ducati but in reality the bike came good when Gabbarini returned and Lorenzo got signed. Sure, the signing would not have immediately seen results so some of the improvements may be in part to Dovi, but he had already been there for years and there was little forward shift.

Yes, Ducati do like to lead their own development and we often hear the excuse that they do not listen to riders, in which case the improvement when Gabbarini returned may well have been Ducati.

Then, lets also not forget that when he was at Tech3 he could not come to grips with aspects of that piece of kit so (and this is full credit to him) he is said to have purchased the full front brake system as he was familiar with the one purchased.




I say this as I am not and never have been a huge fan of Dovi, although I readily admit that he is not a mid pack rider, I just question his developmental input




Throwing a total left field here but I wonder what would happen at Honda if they could side by side test different tyre constructions - ie. 2020/ and even 2019 builds on their current machines. Suggestion here is borne from the level of upset HRC suffered when the tyre construction got changed a number of years back which caused significant front end issues that were worse on Honda than other brands. It may give a lead (and not going to toouch on my thought on tyres)
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August 27th, 2021, 05:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
Hate to be that guy ..............................

But is Dovi really that capable of achieving this outcome?

I mean, he seems to get attributed by some (not saying you) with the success of the Ducati but in reality the bike came good when Gabbarini returned and Lorenzo got signed. Sure, the signing would not have immediately seen results so some of the improvements may be in part to Dovi, but he had already been there for years and there was little forward shift.

Yes, Ducati do like to lead their own development and we often hear the excuse that they do not listen to riders, in which case the improvement when Gabbarini returned may well have been Ducati.

Then, lets also not forget that when he was at Tech3 he could not come to grips with aspects of that piece of kit so (and this is full credit to him) he is said to have purchased the full front brake system as he was familiar with the one purchased.




I say this as I am not and never have been a huge fan of Dovi, although I readily admit that he is not a mid pack rider, I just question his developmental input




Throwing a total left field here but I wonder what would happen at Honda if they could side by side test different tyre constructions - ie. 2020/ and even 2019 builds on their current machines. Suggestion here is borne from the level of upset HRC suffered when the tyre construction got changed a number of years back which caused significant front end issues that were worse on Honda than other brands. It may give a lead (and not going to toouch on my thought on tyres)
I think highly of Dovi this is true. I also agree JLo had much to do with the ducati development. I just think it would be in hondas best interest to have a veteran rider to help with the development of the bike. Is there a better option than Dovi available?
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August 27th, 2021, 05:12 PM   #13
Gaz
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Originally Posted by MdubSTYLIE View Post
I think highly of Dovi this is true. I also agree JLo had much to do with the ducati development. I just think it would be in hondas best interest to have a veteran rider to help with the development of the bike. Is there a better option than Dovi available?
From a currency viewpoint - as in a veteran with recent experience you likely have a very limited list - Pedrosa (taken), Crutchlow (taken), Dovi (status unknown) - and I use those guys as to be fair, they are not stragglers and can produce the good pace needed to be able to test at the high level.

I know there is all talk of Japanese culture and all, but perhaps the solution is not a rider but an engineer, technician etc ........... perhaps they could look in that space as that approach has worked previously for others
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August 27th, 2021, 05:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
From a currency viewpoint - as in a veteran with recent experience you likely have a very limited list - Pedrosa (taken), Crutchlow (taken), Dovi (status unknown) - and I use those guys as to be fair, they are not stragglers and can produce the good pace needed to be able to test at the high level.

I know there is all talk of Japanese culture and all, but perhaps the solution is not a rider but an engineer, technician etc ........... perhaps they could look in that space as that approach has worked previously for others
Very good point. I cant argue that but still the most experienced rider they have other than Marc is Bradl.
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August 27th, 2021, 05:16 PM   #15
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Very good point. I cant argue that but still the most experienced rider they have other than Marc is Bradl.

And Bradl, despite 1 or 2 good races was no front runner ................. name from left field but this one just signed in WSBK but Flock of Seagulls perhaps (Bautista were he available - his style is wilder than Bradl who is smooth)
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August 27th, 2021, 05:19 PM   #16
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And Bradl, despite 1 or 2 good races was no front runner ................. name from left field but this one just signed in WSBK but Flock of Seagulls perhaps (Bautista were he available - his style is wilder than Bradl who is smooth)
Anyone but the spanish bowling ball.
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August 27th, 2021, 06:01 PM   #17
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Anyone but the spanish bowling ball.
You are thinking Barbera.

Bautista did and was on the Honda and did ok (not brilliant by any means but ok) and he is current.

Alternate, approach and aligned to my earlier comment - Puig.

Has Darth Puig now outlived his usefullness to that team/factory?
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August 27th, 2021, 06:30 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
Hate to be that guy ..............................

But is Dovi really that capable of achieving this outcome?

I mean, he seems to get attributed by some (not saying you) with the success of the Ducati but in reality the bike came good when Gabbarini returned and Lorenzo got signed. Sure, the signing would not have immediately seen results so some of the improvements may be in part to Dovi, but he had already been there for years and there was little forward shift.

Yes, Ducati do like to lead their own development and we often hear the excuse that they do not listen to riders, in which case the improvement when Gabbarini returned may well have been Ducati.

Then, lets also not forget that when he was at Tech3 he could not come to grips with aspects of that piece of kit so (and this is full credit to him) he is said to have purchased the full front brake system as he was familiar with the one purchased.




I say this as I am not and never have been a huge fan of Dovi, although I readily admit that he is not a mid pack rider, I just question his developmental input




Throwing a total left field here but I wonder what would happen at Honda if they could side by side test different tyre constructions - ie. 2020/ and even 2019 builds on their current machines. Suggestion here is borne from the level of upset HRC suffered when the tyre construction got changed a number of years back which caused significant front end issues that were worse on Honda than other brands. It may give a lead (and not going to toouch on my thought on tyres)
I still maintain that the roll of a rider in development is much exaggerated in the minds of us fans. I believe most people think the rider is saying, why don't you try this and how about that? But the reality is likely just for the most part how well the rider retains clear memory of what issues occurred at which speeds and at which parts of the tracks and how clearly he recounts it to the engineers. Also, as has been inferred the rider's style on the bike, in that different riders will be of greater value to different bike manufacturers depending on what handling characteristics they've baked into the bike.

I suspect Dovi is underrated in that category, simply because the progress was in small gradual steps, which worked well in the end. Early on when Rossi was with them they were throwing the kitchen sink at the bike and every time they came to a race it seemed, there was some dramatically novel part like a completely new carbon fiber swing-arm, things that radically affected the whole bike. It was like trying to fix a sticking window on the 3rd floor of a building by replacing the entire lower structure. It was kind of nuts. After Rossi and Hayden were gone, Ducati took a much more gradual approach. Lorenzo got a lot of praise during his brief tenure there, but really how much could he really have accomplished in such a short time? He was pals with Gigi and Gigi loved to go out of his way to give credit for his buddy.

You have to ask yourself: if Lorenzo was such hot shit at improving the bike, why is it that Dovi was taking the lion's share of the Ducati podiums?

And what Ducati rider has beaten Marquez, and we're talking young healthy Marquez in his prime, more than Dovi?
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August 27th, 2021, 07:12 PM   #19
Gaz
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I still maintain that the roll of a rider in development is much exaggerated in the minds of us fans. I believe most people think the rider is saying, why don't you try this and how about that? But the reality is likely just for the most part how well the rider retains clear memory of what issues occurred at which speeds and at which parts of the tracks and how clearly he recounts it to the engineers. Also, as has been inferred the rider's style on the bike, in that different riders will be of greater value to different bike manufacturers depending on what handling characteristics they've baked into the bike.

I suspect Dovi is underrated in that category, simply because the progress was in small gradual steps, which worked well in the end. Early on when Rossi was with them they were throwing the kitchen sink at the bike and every time they came to a race it seemed, there was some dramatically novel part like a completely new carbon fiber swing-arm, things that radically affected the whole bike. It was like trying to fix a sticking window on the 3rd floor of a building by replacing the entire lower structure. It was kind of nuts. After Rossi and Hayden were gone, Ducati took a much more gradual approach. Lorenzo got a lot of praise during his brief tenure there, but really how much could he really have accomplished in such a short time? He was pals with Gigi and Gigi loved to go out of his way to give credit for his buddy.

You have to ask yourself: if Lorenzo was such hot shit at improving the bike, why is it that Dovi was taking the lion's share of the Ducati podiums?

And what Ducati rider has beaten Marquez, and we're talking young healthy Marquez in his prime, more than Dovi?

Small gradual steps that had a sudden and marked improvement from between season end and season start. I would say that 1 win in 2016 to 6 wins in 2017 is not a gradual improvement but a sudden, sharp improvement which based on the 4 previous years is not and does not support gradual steps .......... nope, something serious and significant occurred with Ducati between season 2016 and 2017 which is when Gabbarini returned and Lorenzo arrived.



Conversely, if Dovi is so good then why did he only have 1 win in 4 years prior to Gabbarini's arrival at Ducati?

Lets be realistic, Dovi had 7 years on full factory supported rides leading up to 2017 and produced 2 wins (not counting the Scott Honda season to tech3 as full factory) and then went haywire with 10 wins across the next 2 seasons (2017 & 2018).

Likewise, capability to develop does not mean immediate improvements for yourself but in saying that, who was the better rider in late 2017?
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August 27th, 2021, 08:11 PM   #20
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I still maintain that the roll of a rider in development is much exaggerated in the minds of us fans. I believe most people think the rider is saying, why don't you try this and how about that? But the reality is likely just for the most part how well the rider retains clear memory of what issues occurred at which speeds and at which parts of the tracks and how clearly he recounts it to the engineers. Also, as has been inferred the rider's style on the bike, in that different riders will be of greater value to different bike manufacturers depending on what handling characteristics they've baked into the bike.

I suspect Dovi is underrated in that category, simply because the progress was in small gradual steps, which worked well in the end. Early on when Rossi was with them they were throwing the kitchen sink at the bike and every time they came to a race it seemed, there was some dramatically novel part like a completely new carbon fiber swing-arm, things that radically affected the whole bike. It was like trying to fix a sticking window on the 3rd floor of a building by replacing the entire lower structure. It was kind of nuts. After Rossi and Hayden were gone, Ducati took a much more gradual approach. Lorenzo got a lot of praise during his brief tenure there, but really how much could he really have accomplished in such a short time? He was pals with Gigi and Gigi loved to go out of his way to give credit for his buddy.

You have to ask yourself: if Lorenzo was such hot shit at improving the bike, why is it that Dovi was taking the lion's share of the Ducati podiums?

And what Ducati rider has beaten Marquez, and we're talking young healthy Marquez in his prime, more than Dovi?
Rather convenient to ignore what the bike designer/chief engineer said, Gigi's position was clear, and acquiring Jorge was very likely based at least partly on his assessment of Lorenzo when they worked together at Aprilia where Jorge won two 250 world titles, in the process winning the most 250 races won by any rider, rather than being a mere buddy thing. He also became a multiple race winner less than 18 months into his Ducati tenure, too late for Ducati management of course but they are not known for good judgement. Jorge had absolutely dominant pace over everyone including MM in at least 2 of the race wins iirc, and the bike may well have been the best bike on the grid then, not that beating MM in a last lap head to head contest as Dovi did several times is anything to sneer at of course. The young Yamaha riders who joined after Jorge's departure seemed to back his direction with the Yamaha as well, which probably more or less continues or has been returned to.

I acknowledge Jorge is a prickly character, but when he defended his title so valiantly in 2011 and proved capable of mixing it head to head with Casey Stoner as a Stoner tragic I perforce had to be impressed. Dovi never looked anything like Stoner's equal, and while I guess you can perhaps point to equipment, this did not apply when Stoner was on a Ducati and Dovi on a Honda factory bike.

I think Dovi and/or his manager probably also wanted too much money. You get paid in gp bike racing for winning titles rather than contending, I strongly doubt Randy Mamola was ever on the same money as the best of his contemporaries despite finishing second 4 times.
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Last edited by michaelm; August 27th, 2021 at 10:42 PM.
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