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August 9th, 2021, 11:43 AM   #11
#22
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. If there’s any real difference in our posts it comes down to what we focus on in terms of what signifies “success”. Given the perception over the years of HRC as this all conquering conglomerate juggernaut that makes the very best bikes, I’ve always taken keen notice of the relative disparity in results between the main and secondary riders.
I certainly agree with this statement. Honda have never had a dominance liked Yamaha for example had in 2009/2010 or 2015 where most of the battles were between Rossi and Lorenzo. So with that as the bar, then yes you are right.

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While, of course every manufacturer’s results are contingent on getting the best possible rider, it really seems that Honda, once they link up with an “alien” like the young Rossi, or Stoner or Marquez, they get complacent about making improvements to make the bike more compatible for the support riders. In the 2-stroke era, it wasn’t as apparent, I think, because 2-stroke technology had pretty much reached it’s limits. The big three Japanese bike makers were I think on a much more level playing field. The development of 4-stroke bikes to equal and then better the performance of the 2-strokes has been a bit all-over-the-place with stupid digressions like the 800 era. The Japanese being as pragmatic as they’ve are, would I think have greater flexibility re: making the other bikes more suitable to secondary riders, if the change to 4-stroke technology hadn’t made everything exponentially more expensive.
Certainly a possibility. Ducati were the most obvious example of this with Stoner, though Honda massively missed the mark building the Pedrocycle in 2007.

My definition of 'success' for the #2 Repsol Honda is to be regularly fighting for top 6 if Marquez is winning. And no one had gotten close to that in 4 seasons.
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August 9th, 2021, 11:52 AM   #12
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I certainly agree with this statement. Honda have never had a dominance liked Yamaha for example had in 2009/2010 or 2015 where most of the battles were between Rossi and Lorenzo. So with that as the bar, then yes you are right.

Certainly a possibility. Ducati were the most obvious example of this with Stoner, though Honda massively missed the mark building the Pedrocycle in 2007.

My definition of 'success' for the #2 Repsol Honda is to be regularly fighting for top 6 if Marquez is winning. And no one had gotten close to that in 4 seasons.
If we hadn't gone to the control tire era and Ducati had continued to have an exclusive agreement with Bridgestone, I think non-Stoner riders would have fared much better.

Yes. The longer MM is riding around the bikes shortcomings, the worse the bike gets. It's just more evident in the results of the other Honda riders.
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Last edited by Keshav; August 9th, 2021 at 11:55 AM.
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August 9th, 2021, 12:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. If there’s any real difference in our posts it comes down to what we focus on in terms of what signifies “success”. Given the perception over the years of HRC as this all conquering conglomerate juggernaut that makes the very best bikes, I’ve always taken keen notice of the relative disparity in results between the main and secondary riders.

While, of course every manufacturer’s results are contingent on getting the best possible rider, it really seems that Honda, once they link up with an “alien” like the young Rossi, or Stoner or Marquez, they get complacent about making improvements to make the bike more compatible for the support riders. In the 2-stroke era, it wasn’t as apparent, I think, because 2-stroke technology had pretty much reached it’s limits. The big three Japanese bike makers were I think on a much more level playing field. The development of 4-stroke bikes to equal and then better the performance of the 2-strokes has been a bit all-over-the-place with stupid digressions like the 800 era. The Japanese being as pragmatic as they’ve are, would I think have greater flexibility re: making the other bikes more suitable to secondary riders, if the change to 4-stroke technology hadn’t made everything exponentially more expensive.
Maybe I’m wrong, and you do know how to ride a bicycle. You certainly know how to backpedal
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August 9th, 2021, 01:40 PM   #14
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The difference between Fatlock and a flea, is that a flea isn't delusional enough to anticipate the lion being bothered to bite back.
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August 9th, 2021, 02:26 PM   #15
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The difference between Fatlock and a flea, is that a flea isn't delusional enough to anticipate the lion being bothered to bite back.
I was mistaken in calling you King Keshav’s court jester. A jester would be capable of humour.
I guess your just his personal fluffer. Little Uccio
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August 9th, 2021, 03:28 PM   #16
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I was mistaken in calling you King Keshav’s court jester. A jester would be capable of humour.
I guess your just his personal fluffer. Little Uccio
Once a flea, always a flea.
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August 9th, 2021, 06:11 PM   #17
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Once a flea, always a flea.
Can you refrain from quoting his posts please?
I have them blocked to make the forum more pleasant.
Quoting them makes them show (tapatalk)
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August 9th, 2021, 06:28 PM   #18
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Can you refrain from quoting his posts please?
I have them blocked to make the forum more pleasant.
Quoting them makes them show (tapatalk)
Appi-polly-ogies my Droog. I think this has had sufficient attention.
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August 9th, 2021, 11:00 PM   #19
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Re-watching the Styrian GP last night, I noticed how far back Pol Espargaro was so thought I'd start the discussion on here.

Is the 2nd seat cursed? It was a career ender for 2 world champions and while Ale Marquez was a rookie, Pol was hired and expected to shine based on the fact he had a more aggressive riding style that in theory should suit the RC213. Again, like Lorenzo, he had a promising pre season and has faded into the outskirts of the top 10-15 in the season.

It's not for the want of trying. If you watch him, he is ringing that things neck! However, Marque came back from a year off, and is instantly making him look slow. Hell even Alex is doing better on the LCR this season.

What is it going to take for Honda to get both factory bikes to the front again? People blame development direction going in Marquez direction which I won't discount, but I do believe there is some Ducati 2007-2009esque attitude going on within HRC in that Marquez was/is still winning on it.

I personally was hugely excited when Lorenzo was signed. I believed that had he been able to develop the bike to be more rider friendly then the bike, and the Repsol team would have been as dominant as McLaren-Honda in the late 80's with a rider rivalry to match. Alas it was a hill that Lorenzo admitted he didn't want to climb after nearly breaking his neck at Assen.

It seems to me that Honda should have kept Alex, or at least recruit a rider from Moto2. Ducati used to have a lot more success with riders who weren't spoiled by a Yamaha or similar.
Gonna go there as in part I fully agree although perhaps for differing reasons.

For mine, HRC f'ed up by signing Pol simply because to me, he has the 'nearly there' guy who has not fulfilled the potential that people seem to think he has and personally, I wonder if he was signed with results in mind or due to his alleged/supposed development skills.

If I was at HRC and wanted someone that I felt could go out there and win me races, well I have NFI who I would have signed as to a degree that ride has become a 'poisoned chalice' simply for being Marquez's team-mate. Which in a way beggars the question - is the issue that Pol is slow or is it the bike - ah Ducati memories.

Honestly, were I HRC, then Alex Marquez was a good option but he also then has the serious pressure of his brother's results and comparisons. Nope, I would have thrown big dollars to Miller, Crutchlow for another season or two while Alex progressed or even further left fields such as Petrucci or, even gone so far as to offer Dani huge dollars.

I could summarise by saying that using Pol as a measure is perhaps not helping as Pol has not the results to form a fair comparison as capable of handling that bike
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August 10th, 2021, 04:24 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
If we hadn't gone to the control tire era and Ducati had continued to have an exclusive agreement with Bridgestone, I think non-Stoner riders would have fared much better.

Yes. The longer MM is riding around the bikes shortcomings, the worse the bike gets. It's just more evident in the results of the other Honda riders.
Totally agree on both points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
Gonna go there as in part I fully agree although perhaps for differing reasons.

For mine, HRC f'ed up by signing Pol simply because to me, he has the 'nearly there' guy who has not fulfilled the potential that people seem to think he has and personally, I wonder if he was signed with results in mind or due to his alleged/supposed development skills.

If I was at HRC and wanted someone that I felt could go out there and win me races, well I have NFI who I would have signed as to a degree that ride has become a 'poisoned chalice' simply for being Marquez's team-mate. Which in a way beggars the question - is the issue that Pol is slow or is it the bike - ah Ducati memories.

Honestly, were I HRC, then Alex Marquez was a good option but he also then has the serious pressure of his brother's results and comparisons. Nope, I would have thrown big dollars to Miller, Crutchlow for another season or two while Alex progressed or even further left fields such as Petrucci or, even gone so far as to offer Dani huge dollars.

I could summarise by saying that using Pol as a measure is perhaps not helping as Pol has not the results to form a fair comparison as capable of handling that bike
Good points, Hi Gaz.
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