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February 8th, 2021, 05:12 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
So fine. Let Rossi have some wildcards. Stoner's move I suspect was a relatively pragmatic decision on the part of Ducati who weren't having huge success at the time. There weren't a whole lot of other unsigned riders, and Stoner had achieved quite a lot in the lower classes prior to his rookie year. Has to have been more than a few people in MotoGP scouting new talent capable of discerning Stoner's potential. And as has been pointed out ad nauseum, it wasn't so much the bike as custom engineered Bridgestones that gave him his edge.
He was signed as a 1 year rental because Marco Melandri had to serve out the remaining year of his existing contract. When Stoner performed so well for them they basically had to sack Loris Capirossi to keep him with Melandri joining. Sure the Bridgestones were likely what made the thing rideable at all, but to quote Presiozi about the title win “that was Casey”. Marco Melandri didn’t seem to consider the Bridgestones much of an advantage coming from a Michelin shod Honda either.

I am sure the narrow second place finish and the pole position on the LCR Honda attracted some notice and were why Ducati signed him, but my point was that he pretty much fluked a ride in a year when the Ducati on the Bridgestones was good enough to win. He was still called “Crashey” with some justice after his rookie season, and I doubt he would have gotten a factory Honda or Yamaha ride which was mostly what was needed back then; he himself said he wasn’t being given competitive/top spec tyres riding the LCR Honda.

I guess Dorna have succeeded in at least increasing the number of competitive bikes now, but riding a factory Yamaha for Petronas is still a fairly plum ride, with FQ pretty much the favourite to win the title in that situation early season last season.

Last edited by michaelm; February 8th, 2021 at 05:45 PM.
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February 8th, 2021, 05:46 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
So fine. Let Rossi have some wildcards. Stoner's move I suspect was a relatively pragmatic decision on the part of Ducati who weren't having huge success at the time. There weren't a whole lot of other unsigned riders, and Stoner had achieved quite a lot in the lower classes prior to his rookie year. Has to have been more than a few people in MotoGP scouting new talent capable of discerning Stoner's potential. And as has been pointed out ad nauseum, it wasn't so much the bike as custom engineered Bridgestones that gave him his edge.
He was signed as a 1 year rental because Marco Melandri had to serve out the remaining year of his existing contract. When Stoner performed so well for them they basically had to sack Loris Capirossi to keep Stoner with Melandri joining. Sure the Bridgestones were likely what made the thing rideable at all, but to quote Presiozi about the title win “that was Casey”.

I am sure the second place finish and the pole position on the LCR Honda attracted some notice and was why Ducati signed him, but my point was that he pretty much fluked a ride in a year when the Ducati on the Bridgestones was good enough to win. He was still called “Crashey” with some justice though, and I doubt he would have gotten a factory Honda or Yamaha ride which was mostly what was needed back then, and he himself said he wasn’t being given competitive/top spec tyres riding the LCR Honda.

I guess Dorna have succeeded in increasing the number of competitive bikes now, but riding a factory Yamaha for Petronas is still a fairly plum ride, with FQ pretty much the favourite to win the title in that situation early season last season.

Last edited by michaelm; February 8th, 2021 at 06:28 PM.
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February 8th, 2021, 07:07 PM   #33
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Did Rossi decline, or or has the rest of the field caught up and with him?
I think age has a little something to do with it, also after so much initial success his focus has broaden to a wider range of endeavors. a 20 year old rider only has to focus on riding, while a 30 year old usually has family, business investments, and other things to focus on.

MotoGP racing is also very different then it was 10-15 years ago... It was a two team race between factory Honda and factory Yamaha, the rest of the field was in a different universe.
Not being a simplistic dick. Rossi just got old. It happens, to everybody.
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February 8th, 2021, 08:41 PM   #34
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I see what you're saying, but you describe a situation that has existed, and that will continue to exist within the sport and in any competitive aspect of life actually. Rossi does not unilaterally decide where, and if, he continues to rides in MotoGP. His pedigree and achievements do provide him undeniable leverage, but his achievements, are his and they count for something. It's for him to use and he deserves this. His relative performance in race conditions hasn't been that bad either and he is clearly keeping an eye on this, hence his single year contracts.

The younger riders aren't there to beat Rossi. They have their own careers to build, now that they've made it to the premiere class. They have an entire grid of excellent riders to take on. Finally, the VR46 team, owned by Ross as far as I'm aware, has joined the premiere class and will field two young riders. His contribution to a viable grid and the sport continues.

Here we have a 9 times World Champion still riding at age 42, in a rigorous and highly competitive sport. He will be continuing to do so while fielding his own race team. Quite the spectacle from where I sit and makes for a great story.... for some, and I know.... oh how I know, that some cannot stand it, but OK... I know.. it's not for everyone.
Of course they are there for their own careers. My point was if seats are given based on merit younger guys have not had the opportunity to show they deserve the seat over Rossi because they donít get the opportunity to be on the same or similar equipment.

As far as VR46 goes IIRC they will only have one bike on the grid ridden by Rossiís brother, the cost of which came at the expense of the moto3 team. While I donít have a problem with it, last year when Alex was given the Repsol ride there where screams of nepotism, which didnít come at the cost of young riders in moto3. Rossi is free to do whatever he wants with his money but the latest decision does show the opposite to what Rossi fans have been crowing about.

I donít care that he is still riding, my issue is that he is taking a factory bike off of a rider whom likely deserves it more at this stage. If Rossi wanted to be on a 3rd string Ducati and team up with his brother or fund his own factory Yamaha that isnít at the cost of a more deserving rider then I am all for it. Tbh I would be somewhat surprised if he doesnít end up at VR46 next year with his brother, itís a marketing dream especially if Suzuki is shopping for a satellite team as is being reported.
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February 8th, 2021, 08:44 PM   #35
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I have to say it is hard to argue now he was holding up Vinales after Vinales was reputedly given the keys to the factory team last year, or that the other younger Yamaha riders are consistent enough to be world beaters/clearly much better than him either. From the interview excerpts I saw it didn't appear that Petronas Yamaha necessarily had him in their plans all along/were entirely pleased with him joining their team for the coming season though.

I am that rare phenomenon, a fan of Jorge Lorenzo (a 5 times world champion himself) however, and consider him to have been screwed over, probably to Yamaha's overall detriment.
I think itís likely Vinales just wasnít as good as people wanted him to be. He was heralded as the antidote to the Rossi conquering Lorenzo and Marquez but was never as good as either. Vinalesí results at Suzuki werenít all that different to his results at Yamaha consistency wise, the Suzuki was likely a better bike than we gave it credit for.
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February 8th, 2021, 08:48 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
Did Rossi decline, or or has the rest of the field caught up and with him?
I think age has a little something to do with it, also after so much initial success his focus has broaden to a wider range of endeavors. a 20 year old rider only has to focus on riding, while a 30 year old usually has family, business investments, and other things to focus on.

MotoGP racing is also very different then it was 10-15 years ago... It was a two team race between factory Honda and factory Yamaha, the rest of the field was in a different universe.
I still think itís both. His record even during what weíre still his physical prime years on control tyres is telling IMO. The field is more competitive than ever now though. Plenty of Motorsport guys have been successful in their late 30s and early 40s. Tom Brady just won a super bowl at 43. Rossi certainly isnít in his prime but I donít think his age has pushed him so far over the other side of the hill itís the only reason why he isnít winning.
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February 8th, 2021, 08:54 PM   #37
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Stoner was who I had in my mind when I wrote my original post. He was obviously noticed given that Yamaha were courting him before Rossi vetoed the idea but Honda had already put all their eggs in the Pedrosa basket, Ducati were set on an all Italian world championship, IIRC Stoner said in his book he wasn’t even 1st choice for the Ducati 1 year contract. He may have ended up with the Repsol ride instead of Dovi if he hadn’t gone to Ducati but by the end of 2008 after riding mismatched tyres etc he may have been written off totally.
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February 9th, 2021, 05:29 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
He was signed as a 1 year rental because Marco Melandri had to serve out the remaining year of his existing contract. When Stoner performed so well for them they basically had to sack Loris Capirossi to keep him with Melandri joining. Sure the Bridgestones were likely what made the thing rideable at all, but to quote Presiozi about the title win “that was Casey”. Marco Melandri didn’t seem to consider the Bridgestones much of an advantage coming from a Michelin shod Honda either.

I am sure the narrow second place finish and the pole position on the LCR Honda attracted some notice and were why Ducati signed him, but my point was that he pretty much fluked a ride in a year when the Ducati on the Bridgestones was good enough to win. He was still called “Crashey” with some justice after his rookie season, and I doubt he would have gotten a factory Honda or Yamaha ride which was mostly what was needed back then; he himself said he wasn’t being given competitive/top spec tyres riding the LCR Honda.

I guess Dorna have succeeded in at least increasing the number of competitive bikes now, but riding a factory Yamaha for Petronas is still a fairly plum ride, with FQ pretty much the favourite to win the title in that situation early season last season.
I only mentioned the Bridgestones specifically because his Crashy nickname was bestowed by Rossi fanboys, in a year when he had no option to choose his own tires. The fanboys weren't aware of this scenario, but serious industry people who were trackside at every race . . . they had to have been aware and it's not unreasonable to think, saw how the rookie kid rode in spite of being hobbled with shite tires. He came in 8th that year. Riders 1st through 5th were all much more experienced and on full factory bikes. 6th was Roberts Jr a one time world champion, and Edwards a two-times WSBK champion - both with much greater familiarity with all the circuits. Also - I believe there was at the time a greater disparity between full factory and customer bikes - especially as this was prior to the introduction of one-size-fits-all electronics. I don't meant to suggest the tires won the races - but they were certainly a big contributing factor re: making the bike "relatively" rideable for Stoner. Obviously Rossi thought the B-Stones were a big factor as well.

Last edited by Keshav; February 9th, 2021 at 02:12 PM.
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February 10th, 2021, 12:14 AM   #39
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I only mentioned the Bridgestones specifically because his Crashy nickname was bestowed by Rossi fanboys, in a year when he had no option to choose his own tires. The fanboys weren't aware of this scenario, but serious industry people who were trackside at every race . . . they had to have been aware and it's not unreasonable to think, saw how the rookie kid rode in spite of being hobbled with shite tires. He came in 8th that year. Riders 1st through 5th were all much more experienced and on full factory bikes. 6th was Roberts Jr a one time world champion, and Edwards a two-times WSBK champion - both with much greater familiarity with all the circuits. Also - I believe there was at the time a greater disparity between full factory and customer bikes - especially as this was prior to the introduction of one-size-fits-all electronics. I don't meant to suggest the tires won the races - but they were certainly a big contributing factor re: making the bike "relatively" rideable for Stoner. Obviously Rossi thought the B-Stones were a big factor as well.
All coincidence really, no one in their right mind predicted Stoner/Ducati/BS championship winners in 07. They were all also rans. Att Pedrosa was the chosen one to Rossi’s clown. It did change the Motogp landscape though, and I still celebrate that as a huge achievement.

Stoner was nothing more than a big pain in the ass for Dorna, viewer ratings went down big time every time he won a race over Rossi.

2012 was even worse, no wonder he quit, good on him, no use risking life and limb for the Donald Trump of motogp.
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February 10th, 2021, 05:57 AM   #40
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All coincidence really, no one in their right mind predicted Stoner/Ducati/BS championship winners in 07. They were all also rans. Att Pedrosa was the chosen one to Rossiís clown. It did change the Motogp landscape though, and I still celebrate that as a huge achievement.

Stoner was nothing more than a big pain in the ass for Dorna, viewer ratings went down big time every time he won a race over Rossi.

2012 was even worse, no wonder he quit, good on him, no use risking life and limb for the Donald Trump of motogp.
Not to be pedantic, but I never implied Ducati had in their wildest dreams predicting a championship. My point was simply that they saw potential. The field of available candidates for that seat was limited, and candidates with better track records still more limited. Ducati surely didn't care about Dorna rating in the wake of Stoner's wins.

As to his quitting: Agreed. Pearls before swine. Tho what with his machinations to fabricate artificial scenarios leading to more wins for Rossi for the sake of ratings, I tend to think of Carmine as the Vince MacMahon of racing.

OTOH - the whole soap opera made for some really fun discussions on this forum.
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