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January 23rd, 2021, 01:32 AM   #11
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Age has been a recent factor.
More than 4 competitive bikes since 2016 which means a better depth of competition, it has negatively impacted all the 'aliens' bar Marquez. If the conditions were the same in 2015 as they are now I doubt Rossi's strategy of finishing races and picking up the pieces when Lorenzo or Marquez fell off works well enough for him to be leading the title race in the last round. Consistency is still key but now a win generally means more than 5-9 points between you and your closest title rival.
Rossi lost dominance pretty much the moment control tyres were introduced, that factor can't be ruled out either.
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January 23rd, 2021, 04:56 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Age has been a recent factor.
More than 4 competitive bikes since 2016 which means a better depth of competition, it has negatively impacted all the 'aliens' bar Marquez. If the conditions were the same in 2015 as they are now I doubt Rossi's strategy of finishing races and picking up the pieces when Lorenzo or Marquez fell off works well enough for him to be leading the title race in the last round. Consistency is still key but now a win generally means more than 5-9 points between you and your closest title rival.
Rossi lost dominance pretty much the moment control tyres were introduced, that factor can't be ruled out either.
Irony can be rather ironic, as my brother who is an English teacher says. Rossi is probably largely responsible for the control tire rule, to stop unpopular riders such as Casey Stoner winning titles due to tire/bike "advantages."
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January 23rd, 2021, 09:14 AM   #13
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That piece of irony does bring into question the proposed cause effect, i.e., controlled tyres arrive and Rossi loses his dominance. Could easily be the new era of riders. Rossi is almost 3 generations removed.... that's the longevity he carries.
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January 23rd, 2021, 11:50 PM   #14
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That piece of irony does bring into question the proposed cause effect, i.e., controlled tyres arrive and Rossi loses his dominance. Could easily be the new era of riders. Rossi is almost 3 generations removed.... that's the longevity he carries.
I go both ways on this to a degree despite my bias. It remains meritorious that he contended so strongly in 2015 at age 37 given MM, Jorge, and Dani Pedrosa were also on factory Yamahas or Hondas, with DP affected by injury as was almost invariable over his career, and much younger, but in the end he wasn’t fast enough in the end of season races with DP back and healthy as has been said, whatever he or Uccio might claim about stolen titles.

He actually acceded to the discontinuation of the SNS tires as I recall, but I believe he was significantly responsible for control tires, insisting on having Bridgestones after 1 year of possible superiority over the Michelins on which he he had so prospered, including rumoured threats of quitting the sport. Ducati actually wanted to switch to Michelin rather than have a control tire not suited to their idiosyncratic bike. I don’t think there is much doubt he considered that the Ducati bike and the Bridgestone tires beat him rather than Casey Stoner. As I said at the time no-one on a Yamaha and Michelins could have beaten the 2007 Ducati ridden by Casey Stoner, but riding the thing like Casey Stoner was the difficulty, one Rossi didn’t recognise hence his disastrous Ducati adventure and pretty much the blighting of his latter career.
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January 24th, 2021, 01:49 AM   #15
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I go both ways on this to a degree despite my bias. It remains meritorious that he contended so strongly in 2015 at age 37 given MM, Jorge, and Dani Pedrosa were also on factory Yamahas or Hondas, with DP affected by injury as was almost invariable over his career, and much younger, but in the end he wasnít fast enough in the end of season races with DP back and healthy as has been said, whatever he or Uccio might claim about stolen titles.

He actually acceded to the discontinuation of the SNS tires as I recall, but I believe he was significantly responsible for control tires, insisting on having Bridgestones after 1 year of possible superiority over the Michelins on which he he had so prospered, including rumoured threats of quitting the sport. Ducati actually wanted to switch to Michelin rather than have a control tire not suited to their idiosyncratic bike. I donít think there is much doubt he considered that the Ducati bike and the Bridgestone tires beat him rather than Casey Stoner. As I said at the time no-one on a Yamaha and Michelins could have beaten the 2007 Ducati ridden by Casey Stoner, but riding the thing like Casey Stoner was the difficulty, one Rossi didnít recognise hence his disastrous Ducati adventure and pretty much the blighting of his latter career.
As JPS said, in 2015 there were 4 bikes that could win. The aliens would clear off at the beginning of the race never to be seen again. The only exception was Stoner on a Ducati during the control tyre period. As you said DP was out because of injuries, MM decided he needed to repeat 2014 on a bike that wasn't capable of it. Rossi was runner up next year though but at the time Yamaha had a clear advantage that would later be closed by Ducati. I'm not sure if Honda ever closed the advantage, last years results would indicate probably not. Ben Spies finished 5th in 2011 behind the 3 Repsol Honda's and Lorenzo, that's how important being on a factory Honda or Ducati was during that period, it guaranteed you a top 4/5 spot in the standings.
You have to wonder if control tyres had always been a thing how different the sports greatest riders would be.
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January 24th, 2021, 05:26 AM   #16
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I have to say I've never been a fan of control tyres or control ECU's, I've often thought it's at a detriment to the sport. Grand Prix motorcycle racing isn't just a competition for the riders but for the manufacturers and tyre companies. Having tyre brands that suited a particular track better than others made the racing more interesting in my opinion.
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January 24th, 2021, 07:39 AM   #17
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I have to say I've never been a fan of control tyres or control ECU's, I've often thought it's at a detriment to the sport. Grand Prix motorcycle racing isn't just a competition for the riders but for the manufacturers and tyre companies. Having tyre brands that suited a particular track better than others made the racing more interesting in my opinion.
One one level - I agree. However . . . much as I love to see factories trying to out-innovate each other, at some level, I find it a distraction from IMHO the most central aspect of the competition - ie.. the riders and their talents. When the disparity in mechanical competitiveness becomes too wide, it feels to me the sporting aspect becomes overshadowed by how much money the factories throw at the problem. I don't give a crap how much money they have to spend. That's all about a bunch of empty suits beating each other over the head with bags money. Not really a sport.

Last edited by Keshav; January 24th, 2021 at 12:12 PM.
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January 30th, 2021, 05:01 AM   #18
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Guess the years have finally caught up with my hero

Maybe itís time for Casey Stoner to come back


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January 30th, 2021, 01:33 PM   #19
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Less impressive when you factor in the reality that till the spec Marelli ECU was introduced in 2016, there were generally only 4 bikes on the grid capable of winning a grand prix from 2011 thru 2015. Even after that, while we've had other manufacturers win races besides Honda and Yamaha, those two were considered the odds on favorite to win the constructor's title year in and year out. 2020 though being the notable exception as it was Honda's first winless season since 1981. But that aside, being on a Yamaha anyway has always ensured a competitive race weekend the majority of the time. The real question would have been, if Rossi had been on anything other than a Yamaha from 2013 thru 2020, what would his results look like? We already know from the Ducati adventure that he isn't overly competitive when he doesn't have a good base bike to ride. Even with a good base bike, he had one truly standout season, 2015. And even at that, down the stretch when he really needed to put results/wins together, he wasn't up to the task while Jorge was, hence Lorenzo winning the title and not Rossi. His inability to step up under pressure at that point in his career was how I knew he was done as a serious threat for a title permanently. Even the ability to win a lone race or even two, has passed on by. I'm purely of the opinion that he should have announced his retirement for 2020 and called it a day if nothing else. He's blocking more deserving riders from a seat on the grid by continuing to ride for what appears to be no other reason than to placate his enormous ego.
Or he just loves competing and still doesn't feel up to retiring. Most retirements that I've witnessed have been down to loss of interest leading to a loss of competitiveness, admixed with an inner acknowledgement and readiness, it seemed, to move on. Rossi isn't there yet. He is breaking records with his longevity as records are to be broken and still adds some entertainment value, in whatever form that would be. Nothing wrong with that.
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January 31st, 2021, 05:12 AM   #20
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Or he just loves competing and still doesn't feel up to retiring. Most retirements that I've witnessed have been down to loss of interest leading to a loss of competitiveness, admixed with an inner acknowledgement and readiness, it seemed, to move on. Rossi isn't there yet. He is breaking records with his longevity as records are to be broken and still adds some entertainment value, in whatever form that would be. Nothing wrong with that.
Thing is... there's a limited number of bikes of that caliber and if Rossi isn't capable of realizing it's potential, he's essentially there to amuse himself, which is not particularly gratifying to those who watch him floundering around way back in the pack. It doesn't really serve the sport. It's just all about feeding his vanity and enabling his denial of the reality of aging. Seeing him race has about the same appeal as watching 70 year-old hooker in hot pants, tube top and 9" heels strutting on the avenue.
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