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February 19th, 2021, 01:14 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by birdman View Post
100% agree. Even if it held on that first race, it was always going to fail at some point. The correct response was to Marquez he canít ride and put him in a cast. Not screws no plate no choice. That is the doctors actual duty to the patient.
I think they pretty much always plate a fracture like that these days. You are likely correct otherwise though, he should have been immobilised, as he was after the 3rd operation.
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February 19th, 2021, 07:20 AM   #72
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I wouldn't agree with this assumption which is all that it is. This sounds like propaganda to excuse the actions/decisions following his initial surgery.

Whether or not the operation was suboptimal. There is no doubting the contribution of having disturbed the fracture site through breaking the plate and having to undergo an additional procedure for that. Breaking the plate isn't easy and takes secure fixation to achieve.
I read what one surgeon said after he looked at the initial image of the plates and screws. He said it was a problem right from the get-go, and other surgeons said the same thing. The big question at least from those quarters was what was it so poorly done to begin with. Riding a motorcycle shortly after the surgery was a bad idea yes, but even had that not occurred, he was still going to get complications because it was not done well to begin with for whatever reason. Only the surgeon who did it can answer that question and I don't suspect we're ever going to know that answer. Calling it propaganda is rather dramatic. It's not because it didn't even come from anyone connected to Marquez or his circle, it came from people in the field with no vested interest in the entire situation.
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February 19th, 2021, 08:58 AM   #73
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I read what one surgeon said after he looked at the initial image of the plates and screws. He said it was a problem right from the get-go, and other surgeons said the same thing. The big question at least from those quarters was what was it so poorly done to begin with. Riding a motorcycle shortly after the surgery was a bad idea yes, but even had that not occurred, he was still going to get complications because it was not done well to begin with for whatever reason. Only the surgeon who did it can answer that question and I don't suspect we're ever going to know that answer. Calling it propaganda is rather dramatic. It's not because it didn't even come from anyone connected to Marquez or his circle, it came from people in the field with no vested interest in the entire situation.
From where I sit, there are two points being claimed. The first is that his initial operation was not optimal. I do not disagree there at all.

The second point seeming to be made is that he would have ended up in problems anyway if he had not returned, stressed the fixation, and broken the plate leading to him requiring more surgery.

My disagreement is with the second point. What I do know and feared when I read that the plate broke is that a second procedure would lead to more interference with the fracture site, which far more frequently leads to a non-union with or without infection. We know that this indeed happened. If he were restricted from riding with minimal stress on the fracture site allowed until there was clear healing underway, then things could easily have gone very differently.

I don't agree that there was a guarantee that trouble was awaiting from the get go after the initial procedure that he had. A procedure may be done that reduces the chance of healing but this doesn't mean that it's zero chance.

... unless I'm misunderstanding which is entirely possible.
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February 19th, 2021, 06:38 PM   #74
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From where I sit, there are two points being claimed. The first is that his initial operation was not optimal. I do not disagree there at all.

The second point seeming to be made is that he would have ended up in problems anyway if he had not returned, stressed the fixation, and broken the plate leading to him requiring more surgery.

My disagreement is with the second point. What I do know and feared when I read that the plate broke is that a second procedure would lead to more interference with the fracture site, which far more frequently leads to a non-union with or without infection. We know that this indeed happened. If he were restricted from riding with minimal stress on the fracture site allowed until there was clear healing underway, then things could easily have gone very differently.

I don't agree that there was a guarantee that trouble was awaiting from the get go after the initial procedure that he had. A procedure may be done that reduces the chance of healing but this doesn't mean that it's zero chance.

... unless I'm misunderstanding which is entirely possible.
From what you said they stripped too much periosteum. I am not sure whether the plate needed to be as long as it was if they were purely looking at the best operation to heal the fracture either. The first operation as you imply does seem to have achieved adequate fixation at least, and if the arm had been immobilised externally as after the third operation, or if he had even had it in a sling and refrained from doing anything strenuous with the arm it might have worked. Others are using the retrospectoscope now, but you at the time iirc were astonished and perhaps even dismayed that he was riding/allowed to ride the next round/the next week. I would surmise the first operation was performed with a view to his rapid return and may have been suboptimal because of same.

The only thing you didnít predict was the infection, but if asked I am sure you would have considered that to be a possibility after a second invasive procedure.

Last edited by michaelm; February 19th, 2021 at 06:53 PM.
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February 20th, 2021, 02:03 AM   #75
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You would think HRC would have an bevy of doctors giving opinions on the health of the golden goose, and shutting down any attempt by the team or MM himself that runs counter, but I guess not.

You reap what you sow.
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February 20th, 2021, 09:17 AM   #76
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You would think HRC would have an bevy of doctors giving opinions on the health of the golden goose, and shutting down any attempt by the team or MM himself that runs counter, but I guess not.

You reap what you sow.
Well, it's like speeding or gambling. We do it thinking we will come out OK. If a disaster occurred every time, we would not take the risk since it wouldn't be a risk anymore, but just plain stupidity. Surgeon and team took a risk thinking they had a bailout if things didn't work out. They didn't expect problems to escalate as they did. Marc, who takes a risk every time he jumps on that bike, did what he is so accustomed to doing once he got the nod to go ahead. This is why he said that he depends on the team and doctors to help him decide. Once he's allowed, he will be going on the bike.... gotta love him for his tenacity. That's part of his training and conditioning. He's a gladiator.

Now that a disaster has occurred, the blame game starts. Someone has to be held fully accountable. This latest one about the initial operation being doomed to failure from the get go is one example.

With good, even reasonable, fixation, there's no need to wear a cast or sling. What he shouldn't be doing is heavy training and riding at MotoGP speeds as if there's no fracture trying to heal. It boggles my mind what they were thinking taking such a risk. The doctors and teams have been pushing the envelope with allowing riders to ride injured and they've been getting away with it. I was amazed at Lorenzo's early comeback after fracturing his clavicle and having it plated. He got away with it but it set an interesting precedent. Others would follow suit and try to push the envelope even further. The system of determining fitness for riding needs an overhaul and sadly, it takes events as these to prompt such change since otherwise, the teams and riders will be complaining.

It's the up to the governing body to legislate regulations that protect the riders from the teams and also, the riders from themselves. Not only rules that discourage cheating, dangerous or irresponsible riding, but also rules that ensure riders are properly recovered from injuries. A long bone fracture heals relatively predictably. The governing body's mistake is to buy into the notion that an internally fixated long-bone fracture that allows for early mobilisation and faster rehab, should be allowed to undergo the stresses of riding and worse, the risk of falling off the bike and stressing the fixation in an uncontrolled way.

When Marc withdrew from the race, I was relieved but further damage already been done. Enough to lead to the chain of events we are still witnessing unfold after almost a year, rather than 6-8 weeks.
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February 20th, 2021, 08:38 PM   #77
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Well, it's like speeding or gambling. We do it thinking we will come out OK. If a disaster occurred every time, we would not take the risk since it wouldn't be a risk anymore, but just plain stupidity. Surgeon and team took a risk thinking they had a bailout if things didn't work out. They didn't expect problems to escalate as they did. Marc, who takes a risk every time he jumps on that bike, did what he is so accustomed to doing once he got the nod to go ahead. This is why he said that he depends on the team and doctors to help him decide. Once he's allowed, he will be going on the bike.... gotta love him for his tenacity. That's part of his training and conditioning. He's a gladiator.

Now that a disaster has occurred, the blame game starts. Someone has to be held fully accountable. This latest one about the initial operation being doomed to failure from the get go is one example.

With good, even reasonable, fixation, there's no need to wear a cast or sling. What he shouldn't be doing is heavy training and riding at MotoGP speeds as if there's no fracture trying to heal. It boggles my mind what they were thinking taking such a risk. The doctors and teams have been pushing the envelope with allowing riders to ride injured and they've been getting away with it. I was amazed at Lorenzo's early comeback after fracturing his clavicle and having it plated. He got away with it but it set an interesting precedent. Others would follow suit and try to push the envelope even further. The system of determining fitness for riding needs an overhaul and sadly, it takes events as these to prompt such change since otherwise, the teams and riders will be complaining.

It's the up to the governing body to legislate regulations that protect the riders from the teams and also, the riders from themselves. Not only rules that discourage cheating, dangerous or irresponsible riding, but also rules that ensure riders are properly recovered from injuries. A long bone fracture heals relatively predictably. The governing body's mistake is to buy into the notion that an internally fixated long-bone fracture that allows for early mobilisation and faster rehab, should be allowed to undergo the stresses of riding and worse, the risk of falling off the bike and stressing the fixation in an uncontrolled way.

When Marc withdrew from the race, I was relieved but further damage already been done. Enough to lead to the chain of events we are still witnessing unfold after almost a year, rather than 6-8 weeks.
It didnít really work for Lorenzo, other than him not injuring anyone else, he got 5th place points he wouldnít have otherwise got then fell in practice for the next race missing that race and iirc 2 more, eventually losing the title by 4 points. Maybe he would have needed the mid season break to heal sufficiently anyway, but arithmetically at least he would have been better off missing the Assen race and the next race.

(EDIT Looked it up, actually only missed Sachsenring where he crashed and finished 6th the next race at Indianapolis, so arithmetically he made the right move unless not riding at Assen would have prevented him crashing at Sachsenring considering he likely wouldnít have been in podium contention at Indy whatever he did).

Last edited by michaelm; February 21st, 2021 at 02:31 AM.
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February 21st, 2021, 02:35 AM   #78
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It's the up to the governing body to legislate regulations that protect the riders from the teams and also, the riders from themselves. Not only rules that discourage cheating, dangerous or irresponsible riding, but also rules that ensure riders are properly recovered from injuries. A long bone fracture heals relatively predictably. The governing body's mistake is to buy into the notion that an internally fixated long-bone fracture that allows for early mobilisation and faster rehab, should be allowed to undergo the stresses of riding and worse, the risk of falling off the bike and stressing the fixation in an uncontrolled way.
I can't stress what you've said here enough. Athletes must be saved from themselves in any sport. FIM/Dorna etc failed in their care of duty towards athletes here and at other times as well.
Because Marquez is hated by the Valeban they were very excited to jump on the bandwagon to blame Marquez and the I told you so wagon. When all Marquez was guilty of was doing what every athlete has done since the beginning of human competition and that is try to compete no matter what. That he was passed fit to ride while in a condition that was clearly not fit to ride is damming IMO.
I remember watching a video of Colin Edwards talking about being on track when he had some pretty strong pain killers and joking about how he was missing brake markers etc because of the influence that the pain killers had on him. I don't blame Edwards nor was the story he told unfunny with him telling it but the fact he was allowed on track with something in his system that he admitted impacted him in a negative way and could've potentially caused a disaster is disgraceful.
Motorbike racers aren't any tougher than the average athlete but most sports, their governing bodies and teams etc have protocols or a duty of care they stick to. In many cases Dorna/FIM, race teams etc have not shown that.
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February 21st, 2021, 03:54 AM   #79
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I can't stress what you've said here enough. Athletes must be saved from themselves in any sport. FIM/Dorna etc failed in their care of duty towards athletes here and at other times as well.
Because Marquez is hated by the Valeban they were very excited to jump on the bandwagon to blame Marquez and the I told you so wagon. When all Marquez was guilty of was doing what every athlete has done since the beginning of human competition and that is try to compete no matter what. That he was passed fit to ride while in a condition that was clearly not fit to ride is damming IMO.
I remember watching a video of Colin Edwards talking about being on track when he had some pretty strong pain killers and joking about how he was missing brake markers etc because of the influence that the pain killers had on him. I don't blame Edwards nor was the story he told unfunny with him telling it but the fact he was allowed on track with something in his system that he admitted impacted him in a negative way and could've potentially caused a disaster is disgraceful.
Motorbike racers aren't any tougher than the average athlete but most sports, their governing bodies and teams etc have protocols or a duty of care they stick to. In many cases Dorna/FIM, race teams etc have not shown that.
I remember the current HRC principal hanging out fake signs in regard to his gap to the second rider when Dani Pedrosa was leading a wet race at the Sachsenring by 7 seconds. Dani eventually crashed out. I am not sure I would rely on Puig in regard to rider safety either.

Colin Edwards might have started this, he rode 9 days after shattering his clavicle which was considered superhuman at that time.

Last edited by michaelm; February 21st, 2021 at 01:48 PM.
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February 21st, 2021, 07:31 AM   #80
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I remember the current HRC principal hanging out fake signs in regard to his gap to the second rider when Dani Pedrosa was leading a wet race at the Sachsenring by 7 seconds. Dani eventually crashed out. I am not sure I would rely on him in regard to rider safety either.

Colin Edwards might have started this, he rode 9 days after shattering his clavicle which was considered superhuman at that time.
IMO, It's not the Colin rode 9 days after shattering his clavicle, but that Colin was allowed to ride only 9 days after an injury.
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