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p4p1 December 1st, 2020 10:04 PM

Your Top 5
 
I thought to make it a bit more of an apples to apples comparison the top 5 should be from about 80 onwards. When there was more factory bikes etc.

1 - Marc Marquez
He hasn't won as many as Rossi but he has won against stronger competition with far less advantages and done so while showing just as much if not more domination than Rossi.
2 - Valentino Rossi
I don't like him, I think he had a lot of fortunate luck and some behind the scenes work to advantage him/disadvantage others, but 9 world titles is a statement that can't be denied.
3 - Mick Doohan
If not for injuries this could easily have been #1. There's no reason to believe that he couldn't have gone from 92-00 before father time caught up with him. However he didn't and 'only' went 5 straight from 94-98
4 - Eddie Lawson
4 title's against great competition.
5 - Casey Stoner/Jorge Lorenzo/Wayne Rainey
I had a hard time splitting these guys.
They all had great competition. Stoner has 1 less title than the other two but he is the only one Dorna worked hard to remove any advantages from. Stoners Ducati title is still one of the most impressive championships of all time. Rainey was cut down in the middle of his championship run. Lorenzo won titles against Rossi and Marquez.

Bern1 December 2nd, 2020 11:04 AM

Great topic!

1. Lawson Never heard an excuse for anything.
2. Lorenzo Poetry in motion.
3. Rainey Fiercest competitor.
4. Stoner Never saw anybody else drift over the bumps in turn 5 at Laguna.
5. Spencer Those two titles in one year.

One of the things all of these guys share is sportsmanship in addition to excellence. The lack thereof is why none of the other obvious candidates are on my list.

imunderandoverit January 3rd, 2021 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p4p1 (Post 464945)
I thought to make it a bit more of an apples to apples comparison the top 5 should be from about 80 onwards. When there was more factory bikes etc.

1 - Marc Marquez
He hasn't won as many as Rossi but he has won against stronger competition with far less advantages and done so while showing just as much if not more domination than Rossi.
2 - Valentino Rossi
I don't like him, I think he had a lot of fortunate luck and some behind the scenes work to advantage him/disadvantage others, but 9 world titles is a statement that can't be denied.
3 - Mick Doohan
If not for injuries this could easily have been #1. There's no reason to believe that he couldn't have gone from 92-00 before father time caught up with him. However he didn't and 'only' went 5 straight from 94-98
4 - Eddie Lawson
4 title's against great competition.
5 - Casey Stoner/Jorge Lorenzo/Wayne Rainey
I had a hard time splitting these guys.
They all had great competition. Stoner has 1 less title than the other two but he is the only one Dorna worked hard to remove any advantages from. Stoners Ducati title is still one of the most impressive championships of all time. Rainey was cut down in the middle of his championship run. Lorenzo won titles against Rossi and Marquez.

Harder competition than rossi? What competition did he have 2018 and 2019? Not a shit. Same amount that rossi had 2002 and 2005. Not a shit. You keep forgetting biaggi and gibernau 2003 and 2004. Pedro/stoner/jlo 2008 and 2009.

p4p1 January 6th, 2021 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imunderandoverit (Post 465025)
Harder competition than rossi? What competition did he have 2018 and 2019? Not a shit. Same amount that rossi had 2002 and 2005. Not a shit. You keep forgetting biaggi and gibernau 2003 and 2004. Pedro/stoner/jlo 2008 and 2009.

Gibernau and Biaggi? Both had mechanical and tyre disadvantages. Putting that aside neither was as good as Vinales, Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Rossi or Dovisioso.
There wasn't more than 4-5 bikes capable of winning during Rossi's title reign.
Rossi was younger than Gibernau and Biaggi when he went head to head against Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa. He only managed to beat Pedrosa when compared h2h, the wins are actually pretty close but Rossi has 2 titles to Pedrosa's 0. Rossi's complete failure at Ducati has to be taken into account because his strongest competition was riding one and winning.

Marquez destroyed Lorenzo and Pedrosa on a h2h basis, while on control tyres. Later on control electronics and on the same equipment. In 2019 alone 4 manufactures had wins. Currently on the grid and for the last few years there is 4 factory spec Ducatis, 2 Factory Yamahas, 3 factory Hondas and 2 Suzukis. I wont count the 4 KTM's because they weren't capable of winning until this year and Marquez didn't win the title. Rossi never won a championship against that kind of competition, it's not just the riders but the bikes as well. All of Rossi's championship year consisted of him having either the best bike on the grid or tyres, his record when they switched to a control proves it. Even in 09 he still had an advantage over the field with an extra years worth of experience and data. Marquez hasn't been on the best bike since 2014, if not for his complete dominance last year his title in 2016 would have been his most impressive because Honda's problems.

From 01-05 Rossi never had a year as dominant as Marquez did in 14 or 19 despite there being a far less competitive field. Do you think that if Marquez, Stoner or Lorenzo were transported back to that era given Rossi's bike and having tyres made to their preferrences they wouldn't have won more than 11 races? Marquez did it without all of that. Lorenzo managed 9 when Rossi's best on control tyres is 6 while Stoner managed 10 and if not for the Simoncelli accident likely would have made it 11 during the control tyre era.

JPSLotus January 6th, 2021 04:09 AM

2009 was Rossi's finest title. Imagine if he had retired after that?

michaelm January 6th, 2021 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPSLotus (Post 465032)
2009 was Rossi's finest title. Imagine if he had retired after that?

I still don't know why he didn't retire, he had said he wanted to be 2:1 against Stoner, and I strongly suspect Yamaha expected him to do so and hence decided to go forward with Lorenzo.

I do know actually, he couldn't give up the whole circus and all the adulation, and he really wanted to equal or beat Ago for number of premier class titles, even though pretty much no-one, including current Rossi "haters", considered Agostini a peer of his at that time.

(EDIT 2008 was pretty good imo, whatever Stoner's difficulties Rossi rode great.)

JPSLotus January 6th, 2021 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelm (Post 465033)
I still don't know why he didn't, he had said he wanted to be 2:1 against Stoner, and I strongly suspect Yamaha expected him to do so and hence decided to go forward with Lorenzo.

I do know actually, he couldn't give up the whole circus and all the adulation, and he really wanted to beat or equal Ago for number of premier class titles, even though pretty much nobody, including current Rossi "haters" considered Agostini a peer of his at that time.

Rossi is an example of one man's monumental ego ultimately getting the better of him. Not that all of those accomplishments wouldn't give anyone some kind of an ego, but it's obvious looking at the entirety of his premier class career from 2000 through 2020, while it was warranted in the first half, it certainly wasn't in the second half. And well...careers are judged on their entirety, not selective viewing. While his temperament was vastly different from those who had come before him, I can't help but think if he had just gotten on with it more along the lines of guys like Lawson, Rainey and Doohan, he might have accomplished even more possibly.

I feel though that Yamaha made a pretty significant miscalculation in bringing him back in 2013 since once they did that, Iwata's decision making seemed to take a massive hit. There was talk I saw that things at Yamaha are not in good shape at home base. Instability in the corporate side of things that's led to a breakdown in the overall way the operations are handled from the road bikes to how the GP team is handled. It seems this may have started before, or around 2016, which if true, might explain the bungling of the Lorenzo re-signing in '16. While I don't think things may have been superb had they just paid Lorenzo more money, the fact that the whole thing unfolded the way it did indicates to me a rudderless ship adrift at sea with no real solid decision making process being implemented. While I don't disagree with the decision to promote another rider to go next to Vinales, I don't know if this is going to be a good decision either since all of the riders seem to be in agreement the M1 has issues that need to be addressed, yet none seem to know what the bike actually needs...Rossi included amongst them. Signing Lorenzo as a test rider and then barely using him was just more poor decision making. They probably will use Crutchlow more than they used Lorenzo, but I don't seem him making any real significant impact since at the end of the day, I don't recall him being heralded as a developmental genius in any major regard. Plus there's the reality that the inline 4 presents challenges in what can be done regardless of the engine development freeze. You can't change the physics of the crankshaft unless you want to roll the dice with a V4...something I don't see Iwata ever doing.

misfit January 6th, 2021 06:26 AM

:bomb: :bomb: A few (uncharacteristically for this board nowadays) pro-Rossi or rather, in all fairness type comments.
- I really can't see how Rossi's return to Yamaha after being successful with them prior to his move to Ducati, could have accounted for their decline in any meaningful way.
- Rossi's claims that his proposed development direction/suggestions have no longer been significantly taken on board over the last couple years. He says they take to take his suggestions but then 'proceed to do whatever they want anyway'. I personally have no reason to disbelieve him. Additionally, it would seem that as it is among the riders, overall bike development is very competitive with the need for a proper test program involving riders that can push the M1 to its limits and give decent feedback. ATM, Yamaha doesn't have such a program properly sorted.
-finally, I can't understand how one can compare competition now compared to decades ago. One could argue that if Rossi is able to be so competitive now, that the field of riders are not really that great and this is why MM is so dominant. IMO, if a rider dominates an era, then he creditably did so since he was/is a product of that era and rode during that era.

Rossi has made reference to this on many occasions in that the competitiveness among the riders has evolved a lot over the years which is only natural. It's the same for Formula 1, athletics and other sports. An individual's dominance of a particular era should never be belittled simply because he's, amazingly by the way, continued to compete among a new generation of competitors and not surprisingly, struggles to keep up; mainly because of age. But also, a lot of other factors are at play, including having to change approach, having to train more intensively, work harder and in all of this, keep the motivation going. Rossi is astonishing, but hell yes, he ain't perfect. Funnily, I hear these sorts of sentiments among his current and past fellow riders which for me, are far more credible sources.

michaelm January 6th, 2021 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misfit (Post 465035)
:bomb: :bomb: A few (uncharacteristically for this board nowadays) pro-Rossi or rather, in all fairness type comments.
- I really can't see how Rossi's return to Yamaha after being successful with them prior to his move to Ducati, could have accounted for their decline in any meaningful way.
- Rossi's claims that his proposed development direction/suggestions have no longer been significantly taken on board over the last couple years. He says they take to take his suggestions but then 'proceed to do whatever they want anyway'. I personally have no reason to disbelieve him. Additionally, it would seem that as it is among the riders, overall bike development is very competitive with the need for a proper test program involving riders that can push the M1 to its limits and give decent feedback. ATM, Yamaha doesn't have such a program properly sorted.
-finally, I can't understand how one can compare competition now compared to decades ago. One could argue that if Rossi is able to be so competitive now, that the field of riders are not really that great and this is why MM is so dominant. IMO, if a rider dominates an era, then he creditably did so since he was/is a product of that era and rode during that era.

Rossi has made reference to this on many occasions in that the competitiveness among the riders has evolved a lot over the years which is only natural. It's the same for Formula 1, athletics and other sports. An individual's dominance of a particular era should never be belittled simply because he's, amazingly by the way, continued to compete among a new generation of competitors and not surprisingly, struggles to keep up; mainly because of age. But also, a lot of other factors are at play, including having to change approach, having to train more intensively, work harder and in all of this, keep the motivation going. Rossi is astonishing, but hell yes, he ain't perfect. Funnily, I hear these sorts of sentiments among his current and past fellow riders which for me, are far more credible sources.

I don't admire Rossi's off track antics, but he was and remains a great rider, and nothing can take away his achievements during the very long peak of his career, and as you say that he contended so strongly for a title in 2015 in his late 30s against 2 younger riders who are both likely top 10 all time, one definitely so, is evidence in favour of this. I don't think he made the Yamaha bad either, although Lorenzo's direction may have been better given the current control rules and the limitations of the I4.

(EDIT What perhaps is being overlooked is the contribution of Furusawa, who had pretty much designed the 2004 bike in advance of Rossi joining Yamaha, and coincidentally or not Yamaha's decline in competitiveness has occurred after his retirement; it is possible he was more important than any input from Rossi, Lorenzo or any other rider).

birdman January 7th, 2021 12:28 AM

On the numbers, Rossi.

Either retirement in 2010 or a 10th championship in 2015 would probably make it definitive. And yet the move to Ducati followed by an 11 year championship drought has to count for something. Too old? Then stop racing. It’s no excuse when he has been privileged enough to be on factory machinery the entire time.

Lawson.

It’s only just dawned on me, now that we are comparing riders, that what he achieved in 89 would have been the equivalent of Rossi winning the championship in 2011 while on the Ducati riding against Stoner on the same bike.

In 1989 the Honda was, if not as bad as a 2011 Ducati, then probably worse. It didnt just understeer or feel feel vague at the front, it also somewhat randomly and violently highsided. Doohan as a rookie admitted the bike had him spooked and he was ready to quit.

Gardner was reputedly supposed to go to Yamaha in Lawsons place, was even offered more money than Honda to do so, but baulked and decided he had a better chance to beat Lawson on the Honda he was, in all fairness, much more familiar and accomplished on.

The Yamaha was well known to be the diametrical opposite of the Honda. So Gardner stayed, forcing Lawson into a somewhat privateer third bike team with Kanemoto.

Can you imagine it, Rossi in 2011 on a Pramac defeating Stoner on the works Duc.

We haven’t seen it before, we likely won’t see it again. I have no doubt either Stoner or Marquez could beat Rossi, even in his prime, on a Yamaha. But Rossi being Rossi would never allow such a scenario to take place.

By comparison, not only did Lawson take on the Honda challenge but he is also credited with coaching Doohan to ‘think’ more about the art of riding a 500cc, even going into specifics which Doohan himself admits was invaluable. So he helped his future competition get better.

Imo it’s not simply a numbers game. Any rider can get the rub of the green so to speak. To be best of the best you really have to welcome and be ready to take on all challengers in all circumstances. Lawson and Rossi both took the risk to prove how good they really were, yet only one came out on top.


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