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January 7th, 2021, 01:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman View Post
On the numbers, Rossi.

Either retirement in 2010 or a 10th championship in 2015 would probably make it definitive. And yet the move to Ducati followed by an 11 year championship drought has to count for something. Too old? Then stop racing. It’s no excuse when he has been privileged enough to be on factory machinery the entire time.

Lawson.

It’s only just dawned on me, now that we are comparing riders, that what he achieved in 89 would have been the equivalent of Rossi winning the championship in 2011 while on the Ducati riding against Stoner on the same bike.

In 1989 the Honda was, if not as bad as a 2011 Ducati, then probably worse. It didnt just understeer or feel feel vague at the front, it also somewhat randomly and violently highsided. Doohan as a rookie admitted the bike had him spooked and he was ready to quit.

Gardner was reputedly supposed to go to Yamaha in Lawsons place, was even offered more money than Honda to do so, but baulked and decided he had a better chance to beat Lawson on the Honda he was, in all fairness, much more familiar and accomplished on.

The Yamaha was well known to be the diametrical opposite of the Honda. So Gardner stayed, forcing Lawson into a somewhat privateer third bike team with Kanemoto.

Can you imagine it, Rossi in 2011 on a Pramac defeating Stoner on the works Duc.

We haven’t seen it before, we likely won’t see it again. I have no doubt either Stoner or Marquez could beat Rossi, even in his prime, on a Yamaha. But Rossi being Rossi would never allow such a scenario to take place.

By comparison, not only did Lawson take on the Honda challenge but he is also credited with coaching Doohan to ‘think’ more about the art of riding a 500cc, even going into specifics which Doohan himself admits was invaluable. So he helped his future competition get better.

Imo it’s not simply a numbers game. Any rider can get the rub of the green so to speak. To be best of the best you really have to welcome and be ready to take on all challengers in all circumstances. Lawson and Rossi both took the risk to prove how good they really were, yet only one came out on top.
I have always agreed with you about Lawson. Even in his last years he won races on a Cagiva, when there were no control tires or anything else, perhaps more equivalent to winning on a Kawasaki than winning on the 2010 and 2011-12 Ducati.
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January 7th, 2021, 11:44 AM   #12
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Here's a thought to ponder for you guys...

Given Yamaha's commitment to the inline 4, if we could roll 10-15 years off of Rossi's biological clock, if he demanded that they switch to a V4 configuration, do you think they would?
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January 7th, 2021, 02:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
Here's a thought to ponder for you guys...

Given Yamaha's commitment to the inline 4, if we could roll 10-15 years off of Rossi's biological clock, if he demanded that they switch to a V4 configuration, do you think they would?
He pretty much did when Stoner was beating him in 2007, but backed off after going to pneumatic valves gave the I4 a power increase.
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January 9th, 2021, 07:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman View Post
On the numbers, Rossi.

Either retirement in 2010 or a 10th championship in 2015 would probably make it definitive. And yet the move to Ducati followed by an 11 year championship drought has to count for something. Too old? Then stop racing. Itís no excuse when he has been privileged enough to be on factory machinery the entire time.

Lawson.

Itís only just dawned on me, now that we are comparing riders, that what he achieved in 89 would have been the equivalent of Rossi winning the championship in 2011 while on the Ducati riding against Stoner on the same bike.

In 1989 the Honda was, if not as bad as a 2011 Ducati, then probably worse. It didnt just understeer or feel feel vague at the front, it also somewhat randomly and violently highsided. Doohan as a rookie admitted the bike had him spooked and he was ready to quit.

Gardner was reputedly supposed to go to Yamaha in Lawsons place, was even offered more money than Honda to do so, but baulked and decided he had a better chance to beat Lawson on the Honda he was, in all fairness, much more familiar and accomplished on.

The Yamaha was well known to be the diametrical opposite of the Honda. So Gardner stayed, forcing Lawson into a somewhat privateer third bike team with Kanemoto.

Can you imagine it, Rossi in 2011 on a Pramac defeating Stoner on the works Duc.

We havenít seen it before, we likely wonít see it again. I have no doubt either Stoner or Marquez could beat Rossi, even in his prime, on a Yamaha. But Rossi being Rossi would never allow such a scenario to take place.

By comparison, not only did Lawson take on the Honda challenge but he is also credited with coaching Doohan to Ďthinkí more about the art of riding a 500cc, even going into specifics which Doohan himself admits was invaluable. So he helped his future competition get better.

Imo itís not simply a numbers game. Any rider can get the rub of the green so to speak. To be best of the best you really have to welcome and be ready to take on all challengers in all circumstances. Lawson and Rossi both took the risk to prove how good they really were, yet only one came out on top.
This post reminds me of that ad where Lawson and Gardner stare each other down nose to nose. Helmet ad?
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January 21st, 2021, 04:59 AM   #15
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1. Eddie Lawson - Jumping from a championship winning bike to a bike which was considered evil and taking it to a championship in the era he did puts Steady Eddie at the top for me.

2. Mick Doohan - My personal favourite rider, to come back from the injuries he did and dominate in the way he did is something to be respected and while some people may have thought his era was a bit boring, I say it was an absolute privilege to watch an absolute master at work and completely destroying the opposition.

3. Marc Marquez - A rider as at ease at blasting away into the distance as he is at close quarters combat, spectacular to watch, so many times he looks like he's going to crash and saves it and never knows when he's beaten. If he comes back from his nasty arm injury and wins another title I'd probably bump him up to that #1 spot

4. Casey Stoner - Like Doohan an absolute privilege to watch at work, a rider with a style which befuddled his Ducati teammates and their engineers and one of the very few riders to win the premier class championship with two manufacturers, the speed he showed as a Ducati test rider at Sepang in 2016 was proof of how good he still was. His retirement was a huge blow for Grand Prix motorcycle racing IMO.

5 Valentino Rossi - I can't say I'm a massive fan of the guy but I do respect what he has achieved in such a long career, he may have benefited from having the best package on the grid at times but you've still got to have the talent and hunger to ride it. Slightly soured his standing by hanging around too long and I didn't care for his clownish antics or his embarrassing screams of conspiracies
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January 21st, 2021, 06:19 AM   #16
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My faves are selected pretty much purely on the basis of their ability to stir something deeply personal and emotional, a spark that excites me, makes me get the hell out of my armchair, get close to the TeeVee and cheer them on.

Top of the list (and how can he not be on everybody's list?) Fast Freddie. All American, aw shucks Louisianna boy who won premiere and 250 championships back to back in the same year.

King Kenny - because every successful rider who followed, tried in some fashion to emulate his riding style, all of them stood on his shoulders.

Sheeney - because his championship seemed so unlikely and because he was such a great spokesman for the sport, and because unlike most of his competitors - he made racing "sexy". The Americans for all their good qualities - were mostly kind of grim and stodgy.

Schwantz - who was the original Marquez. Watch his races with him on that POS Suzuki making all kind of radically insane rodeo shapes that nobody should have been able to take in a straight line, never mind around a turn while passing the likes of Rainey. Total cowboy. Talk about riding with injuries....

Stoner - because.
michaelm and JPSLotus like this.

Last edited by Keshav; January 21st, 2021 at 11:21 AM.
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April 21st, 2021, 01:45 AM   #17
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VR

1. Valentino Rossi
2. Marc Marquez


Moto GP crash:
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April 21st, 2021, 04:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
My faves are selected pretty much purely on the basis of their ability to stir something deeply personal and emotional, a spark that excites me, makes me get the hell out of my armchair, get close to the TeeVee and cheer them on.

Top of the list (and how can he not be on everybody's list?) Fast Freddie. All American, aw shucks Louisianna boy who won premiere and 250 championships back to back in the same year.

King Kenny - because every successful rider who followed, tried in some fashion to emulate his riding style, all of them stood on his shoulders.

Sheeney - because his championship seemed so unlikely and because he was such a great spokesman for the sport, and because unlike most of his competitors - he made racing "sexy". The Americans for all their good qualities - were mostly kind of grim and stodgy.

Schwantz - who was the original Marquez. Watch his races with him on that POS Suzuki making all kind of radically insane rodeo shapes that nobody should have been able to take in a straight line, never mind around a turn while passing the likes of Rainey. Total cowboy. Talk about riding with injuries....

Stoner - because.
Steady Eddie doesn't make your list?
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April 21st, 2021, 07:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
Steady Eddie doesn't make your list?
Would - if it were a top 6.

Last edited by Keshav; April 26th, 2021 at 10:33 AM.
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May 1st, 2021, 08:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
2009 was Rossi's finest title. Imagine if he had retired after that?
Nah. 2008 was, followed by 2004.
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