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November 17th, 2020, 03:17 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Vinales also, who had done rather well on the first tire in the early season.

I never had a problem with them making the previously rejected tire available, they just need to keep the tire originally voted for going as well. Dorna themselves have subsequently recognised this, there is a rule now.

Your perception was perhaps not the general one, there were even comments from other riders about Michelin making Rossi his own tires. MM was fine with the change of course, I think he may have even said, correctly, that a tire which suited Rossi was also a tire which suited him.

Perhaps Valentino learnt from experience having voted for the less durable tire in the previous rider tire vote which conveniently removed the tire on which Stoner was prospering early that season; Stoner predicted the tire voted for on that occasion would prove insufficiently durable under race conditions, very definitely correctly, with subsequent delaminations of the tire concerned including on Rossi’s bike in one race.
Trying to allow for any subconscious bias i may have, I don't believe that is just 'my perception', but rather a statement of facts.
  • During preseason testing, Michelin brought several front tyre
    constructions
  • All riders barring Rossi preferred the softer construction tyre
  • Michelin went with the clear majority and used the softer construction front tyre for the 2017 allocation
  • There were an unprecedented amount of front end crashes during the first few races that were attributed to the front tyre construction bring too soft when pushing too the limit
  • The riders safety commission met and wanted something done
  • The only thing Michelin could do quickly was offer the harder construction tyre (which happened to be the one that Rossi had a preference for) as they had an allocation of them already made up
  • Riders voted on this and all riders, with the exception of Pol/Lorenzo, voted to use the harder construction front tyre (Rossi abstained, as I suspect he was trying to avoid getting blamed for this)
  • The harder construction front tyre was used from that point onwards
Even if you hate Rossi, it's hard to interpret the above events as Michelin/Dorna simply giving Rossi the tyre he wanted (you can do that, you would just look foolish).

I also have issues with the process.
I don't believe that there were any mechanisms in place to change the tyre allocation and the whole thing did smack of making the rules up as they went along (even if the intention was good/safety based) and, as you point out, Michelin could have been forced to offer both tyre constructions (they didn't want to based on cost).

Again, to assign the narrative that this was all done to help Rossi is just plain silly. If they wanted to do that, they would have simply accommodated his preference in the first place.


Regarding the previous tyre vote that affected Stoner so badly, we don't need to guess about that.
Rossi is on record as saying that he voted for the worse tyre as it made no difference to him on the Ducati as they were in such deep trouble everywhere else. So he went with the tyre that would cause his rivals the most trouble

Last edited by Macca; November 17th, 2020 at 03:20 AM.
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November 17th, 2020, 03:27 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
I think the two conclusions you can draw from Michelin are that A) The tyres are relatively shit and inconsistent by design in an attempt to make the racing closer, harder to predict and "better" or Michelin are incompetent. I'm not sure which way to lean tbh.

For me a huge red flag was in 2017 when Michelin worked on the tyre that was rejected by everyone bar Rossi. IIRC they actually did say that after the testing they worked on the rejected tyre.

It leads me to believe it is a little from column A and a little from column B or it was at one point but now its just column B.
In this case I was meaning to imply a year to year lottery rather than a lottery from race to race; doubt that Suzuki deliberately designed a bike ahead of the season to suit what gives every appearance of being a generally poor tire this year was my point if there was one. Having a good all round bike and good all round riders probably wasn’t a bad way to go however. Yamaha had both a bike or bikes and riders which/who could be faster on their day, but were nowhere when conditions didn’t suit, which was down imo substantially to a narrow window in which their bike(s) and riders could operate successfully with the Michelins.
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November 17th, 2020, 03:43 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Trying to allow for any subconscious bias i may have, I don't believe that is just 'my perception', but rather a statement of facts.
  • During preseason testing, Michelin brought several front tyre
    constructions
  • All riders barring Rossi preferred the softer construction tyre
  • Michelin went with the clear majority and used the softer construction front tyre for the 2017 allocation
  • There were an unprecedented amount of front end crashes during the first few races that were attributed to the front tyre construction bring too soft when pushing too the limit
  • The riders safety commission met and wanted something done
  • The only thing Michelin could do quickly was offer the harder construction tyre (which happened to be the one that Rossi had a preference for) as they had an allocation of them already made up
  • Riders voted on this and all riders, with the exception of Pol/Lorenzo, voted to use the harder construction front tyre (Rossi abstained, as I suspect he was trying to avoid getting blamed for this)
  • The harder construction front tyre was used from that point onwards
Even if you hate Rossi, it's hard to interpret the above events as Michelin/Dorna simply giving Rossi the tyre he wanted (you can do that, you would just look foolish).

I also have issues with the process.
I don't believe that there were any mechanisms in place to change the tyre allocation and the whole thing did smack of making the rules up as they went along (even if the intention was good/safety based) and, as you point out, Michelin could have been forced to offer both tyre constructions (they didn't want to based on cost).

Again, to assign the narrative that this was all done to help Rossi is just plain silly. If they wanted to do that, they would have simply accommodated his preference in the first place.


Regarding the previous tyre vote that affected Stoner so badly, we don't need to guess about that.
Rossi is on record as saying that he voted for the worse tyre as it made no difference to him on the Ducati as they were in such deep trouble everywhere else. So he went with the tyre that would cause his rivals the most trouble
As I said, no problem with providing the new tire but keeping the old one going, particularly with Vinales doing well early; riders don’t exactly have zero motivation to vote for a tire which disadvantages the rider who is leading the championship, which Valentino admitted he did in 2012 because it disadvantaged Stoner when he himself wasn’t in contention riding for Ducati; I make no pretence of being other then a Stoner fanboy myself of course.

I have a clear recollection of Michelin turning up to a US round with the previously rejected tire to trial to the surprise of many including other riders particularly given that the difficulty of transporting too many tires to distant races was supposed to be the reason for the limitation of tire choices, and of several riders specifically saying this was not at their request, I think including MM, although he joked about it given it was to his advantage as well given his tire preferences are similar to Rossi’s.

Last edited by michaelm; November 17th, 2020 at 04:33 AM.
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November 17th, 2020, 05:58 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Trying to allow for any subconscious bias i may have, I don't believe that is just 'my perception', but rather a statement of facts.
  • [1]During preseason testing, Michelin brought several front tyre
    constructions
    [2]All riders barring Rossi preferred the softer construction tyre
    [3]Michelin went with the clear majority and used the softer construction front tyre for the 2017 allocation
    [4]There were an unprecedented amount of front end crashes during the first few races that were attributed to the front tyre construction bring too soft when pushing too the limit
    [5] The riders safety commission met and wanted something done
    [6]The only thing Michelin could do quickly was offer the harder construction tyre (which happened to be the one that Rossi had a preference for) as they had an allocation of them already made up
    [7]Riders voted on this and all riders, with the exception of Pol/Lorenzo, voted to use the harder construction front tyre (Rossi abstained, as I suspect he was trying to avoid getting blamed for this)
    [8]The harder construction front tyre was used from that point onwards
Even if you hate Rossi, it's hard to interpret the above events as Michelin/Dorna simply giving Rossi the tyre he wanted (you can do that, you would just look foolish).

I also have issues with the process.
I don't believe that there were any mechanisms in place to change the tyre allocation and the whole thing did smack of making the rules up as they went along (even if the intention was good/safety based) and, as you point out, Michelin could have been forced to offer both tyre constructions (they didn't want to based on cost).

Again, to assign the narrative that this was all done to help Rossi is just plain silly. If they wanted to do that, they would have simply accommodated his preference in the first place.


Regarding the previous tyre vote that affected Stoner so badly, we don't need to guess about that.
Rossi is on record as saying that he voted for the worse tyre as it made no difference to him on the Ducati as they were in such deep trouble everywhere else. So he went with the tyre that would cause his rivals the most trouble
I was actually stuck in a foreign country and unable to work at the time. So I didn't have all that much to do. I followed the tyre shenanigans closely.

You're correct during the pre-season including the 1st Valencia test Michelin bought a few tyres to the test. All riders barring Rossi voted for one tyre. The other tyre was characterised at the time as unrideable, that's important for later. Every tyre choice is done by a majority vote, even the pre-season ones. Michelin went with the tyre all the riders had voted for. Michelin are bound by the sports by-laws to go with the majority vote.

There was not an unprecedented amount of crashing during the first few races, that caused a safety meeting for Michelin to do something. There was only 4 accidents at the Qatar GP. That's not an unheard of amount. It's actually the same as the season before.

Directly after Qatar Rossi and Iannone complained about the front tyre according to Goubert. That's on the record. By the time the Argentina race came around though Goubert was now telling everyone that a heap of riders came to him. He named a few and IIRC when asked during the press conference at Argentina some of the riders whom he claimed came to him denied it. Argentina was round 2. By Argentina Michelin had cooked up and brought a whole heap of the #70 tyres to the round but due to customs they wouldn't be there for fp1.

The safety commission vetoed the tyre. Rossi did not abstain or anything like that. He stopped attending safety meetings after 2015. The riders argued that it was for safety grounds to veto the tyre but really it was because they though Michelin and Rossi were making a power play. Aleix IIRC said that the tyre was only bought for Rossi. When asked about it Marquez said a harder tyre would be an advantage to him but he didn't agree with how it came to be at Argentina. That's about as close to Marquez saying the tyre was coz Rossi wanted it as you'll get. The race commission actually knew nothing about the new 4th tyre. As Mike pointed out a few of the riders did say they never asked for a completely new tyre. Rossi was by all accounts the only who did so.

This was actually a turning point in MotoGP IMO in regards to how much power Rossi had to use the rest of the grid to get what he wanted. In this instance the other riders dug in and told Michelin and by extension Rossi to get fucked and that they wouldn't roll over and submit.

I went and found an article and it more or less backed up my memories of what happened
https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rid...-in-argentina/

So points 4-6 in your post are wrong. I'd also argue that your contention that anyone who argues the point that it could be used as proof for Michelin/Dorna giving Rossi what he wanted is just as wrong.

https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rid...crisis/#page-8
This article states that the easiest way to fix Rossi's problems would be a new tyre. Strangely that was what they tried to have happen and what did eventually happen.

Why would Michelin cook up a heap of tyres in time for the Argentina race when according to Goubert himself only 2 riders complained about the front tyre?

Let's also consider that the only tyre with the new stiffer carcass that Rossi preferred available was the soft option. That according to this Italian source (https://www.gpone.com/en/2017/04/08/...inos-tyre.html) would only have been an advantage to the m1 with Rossi being the only one on the m1 who would have preferred that option. Michelin may have only had the capability to manufacture 1 tyre option with that carcass but just another strange coincidence I guess that the soft option they produced would likely only benefit Rossi.

Now the infamous tyre vote. The riders/safety commission essentially refused to test the #70 tyre until they were back in Europe. They tested the tyre in Jerez. Rossi DID NOT abstain from the vote he voted for the new tyre.
The three that voted against the tyre were Lorenzo, Vinales and the third one may have been Espagaro I can't recall who it was exactly.

The revised tyre was then used from Mugello onwards. Not only did that completely fuck Vinales' championship, though recent history shows he probably would have done that himself anyway, but in an ironic twist it totally derailed Rossi's championship charge. Sure Rossi got his only win of the season on the #70 tyre but he got the same amount of podiums from Mugello onwards as he had in the first 5 races.

So you're statement of facts were not actually fact for the most part, just a wrong recollection in then end, which is fine it was over 3 years ago. All of this isn't proof of a Rossi conspiracy but when you consider how often things have happened in the past that either disadvantage Rossi, give Rossi an advantage or both it doesn't take Einstein to see until it was crystal clear he would never win another title, Dorna often helped to stack the deck in Rossi's favour.
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Last edited by p4p1; November 17th, 2020 at 06:01 AM.
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November 17th, 2020, 06:27 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
I was actually stuck in a foreign country and unable to work at the time. So I didn't have all that much to do. I followed the tyre shenanigans closely.

You're correct during the pre-season including the 1st Valencia test Michelin bought a few tyres to the test. All riders barring Rossi voted for one tyre. The other tyre was characterised at the time as unrideable, that's important for later. Every tyre choice is done by a majority vote, even the pre-season ones. Michelin went with the tyre all the riders had voted for. Michelin are bound by the sports by-laws to go with the majority vote.

There was not an unprecedented amount of crashing during the first few races, that caused a safety meeting for Michelin to do something. There was only 4 accidents at the Qatar GP. That's not an unheard of amount. It's actually the same as the season before.

Directly after Qatar Rossi and Iannone complained about the front tyre according to Goubert. That's on the record. By the time the Argentina race came around though Goubert was now telling everyone that a heap of riders came to him. He named a few and IIRC when asked during the press conference at Argentina some of the riders whom he claimed came to him denied it. Argentina was round 2. By Argentina Michelin had cooked up and brought a whole heap of the #70 tyres to the round but due to customs they wouldn't be there for fp1.

The safety commission vetoed the tyre. Rossi did not abstain or anything like that. He stopped attending safety meetings after 2015. The riders argued that it was for safety grounds to veto the tyre but really it was because they though Michelin and Rossi were making a power play. Aleix IIRC said that the tyre was only bought for Rossi. When asked about it Marquez said a harder tyre would be an advantage to him but he didn't agree with how it came to be at Argentina. That's about as close to Marquez saying the tyre was coz Rossi wanted it as you'll get. The race commission actually knew nothing about the new 4th tyre. As Mike pointed out a few of the riders did say they never asked for a completely new tyre. Rossi was by all accounts the only who did so.

This was actually a turning point in MotoGP IMO in regards to how much power Rossi had to use the rest of the grid to get what he wanted. In this instance the other riders dug in and told Michelin and by extension Rossi to get fucked and that they wouldn't roll over and submit.

I went and found an article and it more or less backed up my memories of what happened
https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rid...-in-argentina/

So points 4-6 in your post are wrong. I'd also argue that your contention that anyone who argues the point that it could be used as proof for Michelin/Dorna giving Rossi what he wanted is just as wrong.

https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rid...crisis/#page-8
This article states that the easiest way to fix Rossi's problems would be a new tyre. Strangely that was what they tried to have happen and what did eventually happen.

Why would Michelin cook up a heap of tyres in time for the Argentina race when according to Goubert himself only 2 riders complained about the front tyre?

Let's also consider that the only tyre with the new stiffer carcass that Rossi preferred available was the soft option. That according to this Italian source (https://www.gpone.com/en/2017/04/08/...inos-tyre.html) would only have been an advantage to the m1 with Rossi being the only one on the m1 who would have preferred that option. Michelin may have only had the capability to manufacture 1 tyre option with that carcass but just another strange coincidence I guess that the soft option they produced would likely only benefit Rossi.

Now the infamous tyre vote. The riders/safety commission essentially refused to test the #70 tyre until they were back in Europe. They tested the tyre in Jerez. Rossi DID NOT abstain from the vote he voted for the new tyre.
The three that voted against the tyre were Lorenzo, Vinales and the third one may have been Espagaro I can't recall who it was exactly.

The revised tyre was then used from Mugello onwards. Not only did that completely fuck Vinales' championship, though recent history shows he probably would have done that himself anyway, but in an ironic twist it totally derailed Rossi's championship charge. Sure Rossi got his only win of the season on the #70 tyre but he got the same amount of podiums from Mugello onwards as he had in the first 5 races.

So you're statement of facts were not actually fact for the most part, just a wrong recollection in then end, which is fine it was over 3 years ago. All of this isn't proof of a Rossi conspiracy but when you consider how often things have happened in the past that either disadvantage Rossi, give Rossi an advantage or both it doesn't take Einstein to see until it was crystal clear he would never win another title, Dorna often helped to stack the deck in Rossi's favour.
Our recollections coincide which may reflect our particular prejudices I guess. It was indeed Argentina rather than a US round where they turned up with the tire to trial.

At the time i was strongly of the opinion that Vinales, who very definitely voted to retain the existing tire, had been screwed by Dorna and Michelin, and not supported by Yamaha, but as you say he may well have managed to screw himself anyway on subsequent evidence.

End result was that Rossi may have been correct the tire was best for the majority of the grid who somewhat democratically proceeded with the tire most of them preferred and was best for them, as opposed to 2012 when a defective tire was voted for, but no way should the original tire have been taken away particularly from the points leader, which I believe has subsequently been recognised even by Dorna with a rule against this now in force. I do recall one rider, possibly one of the Brits, opining that the chances of Michelin turning up at Argentina with a tire of his preference to trial were rather slim.
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November 17th, 2020, 07:59 AM   #46
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I don’t have video pass anymore so I can’t be sure that the conference video for Argentina still has the whole press conference on it. But the riders and journalists definitely of the opinion that the tyres were for Rossi.

I would consider that if a few riders feel the same way we do about what happened, then it certainly gives a lot of credence to our beliefs which seem to align. Let’s not forget in the Lorenzo documentary about 2015 when his preferred tyre was not used a rider commenting, they say it’s for safety but we all know the real reason why. That was after Lorenzo had won 4 on the trot with the tyre type that offered more edge grip. Maybe the safety reasons were real but it’s another coincidence that happened to favour Rossi over his main rival. Eventually the number of coincidences is not at all coincidental. Remember in 2016 after Lorenzo set the world alight with the original Michelin tyre during testing that was then removed soon after?

My opinion whether Rossi was correct in his original decision is that Michelin worked to improve the #70 tyre as it was clear Rossi wasn’t getting on with the #6. Riders went from saying the tyre was unrideable to it being the preferred option, of course disadvantage or removing a Vinales advantage may have been part of their decision process, but I still strongly doubt they would vote for a tyre that they thought was unrideable to remove the advantage. It stands to reason that Michelin worked to improve the #70 tyre.

Last edited by p4p1; November 17th, 2020 at 08:04 AM.
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November 17th, 2020, 02:34 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
I was actually stuck in a foreign country and unable to work at the time. So I didn't have all that much to do. I followed the tyre shenanigans closely.

You're correct during the pre-season including the 1st Valencia test Michelin bought a few tyres to the test. All riders barring Rossi voted for one tyre. The other tyre was characterised at the time as unrideable, that's important for later. Every tyre choice is done by a majority vote, even the pre-season ones. Michelin went with the tyre all the riders had voted for. Michelin are bound by the sports by-laws to go with the majority vote.

There was not an unprecedented amount of crashing during the first few races, that caused a safety meeting for Michelin to do something. There was only 4 accidents at the Qatar GP. That's not an unheard of amount. It's actually the same as the season before.

Directly after Qatar Rossi and Iannone complained about the front tyre according to Goubert. That's on the record. By the time the Argentina race came around though Goubert was now telling everyone that a heap of riders came to him. He named a few and IIRC when asked during the press conference at Argentina some of the riders whom he claimed came to him denied it. Argentina was round 2. By Argentina Michelin had cooked up and brought a whole heap of the #70 tyres to the round but due to customs they wouldn't be there for fp1.
I'll confirm that I was working from memory when I posted and you are correct that the new tyres were brought to Argentina they got stuck in customs so weren't actually available for the Friday sessions

Regardgin crashes, I don't have stats with me, but I'm sure that the opening rounds of the 2017 season (including pre-season testing and free practice sessions) saw a huge amount of front end crashes (I'll have to dig into this)

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
The safety commission vetoed the tyre. Rossi did not abstain or anything like that. He stopped attending safety meetings after 2015.
I think this is just semantics now - He knew what they were discussing at the safety commission and still chose not to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
The riders argued that it was for safety grounds to veto the tyre but really it was because they though Michelin and Rossi were making a power play.
I believe that the reason given that there wasn't enough time to evaluate 4 front tyres (as they were not available for Friday's sessions and Saturday was looking wet).
No one in the safety commission disagreed.

I've had to resort to google and grab a quote from Cal

Quote:
Crutchlow said: "The situation is that when we arrived here we had three front tyres to use; one didn't arrive until today and we were supposed to have four, but now have three again. Nothing else to say."

However, the British rider later added: "I think the situation is clear. A lot of riders complained and said it was really soft, the front tyre this year, and also in Qatar. But to bring it in this weekend was not feasible for us as riders and for the organisation, for arriving on Saturday morning.

"I think in the end it was probably the correct decision and with today's weather, when would we ever try it? I don't know if anyone would have tried in the morning warm-up tomorrow and then said 'we race'. In the end I think it's better to bring to another track or something," he added.

"But yes, there were some riders who said the front tyre was feeling soft compared to what we had last year. Hopefully we can test something different for the future."
But anyway, the decision was made not to allow them to be tested

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Aleix IIRC said that the tyre was only bought for Rossi.
You may be right there, I had remembered it as Pol but it could well have been Aleix. One of them did have issues with it all (that's not to say they were right of course)

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
When asked about it Marquez said a harder tyre would be an advantage to him but he didn't agree with how it came to be at Argentina. That's about as close to Marquez saying the tyre was coz Rossi wanted it as you'll get. The race commission actually knew nothing about the new 4th tyre. As Mike pointed out a few of the riders did say they never asked for a completely new tyre. Rossi was by all accounts the only who did so.
This is purely opinion and conjuncture (doesn't mean its wrong though).
The riders I know who were reported as asking for the 'new' tyre were Rossi, Crutchlow, Iannone, Pedrosa and Marquez (although I believe that Marc actually just wanted a different compound, not a different construction


Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
This was actually a turning point in MotoGP IMO in regards to how much power Rossi had to use the rest of the grid to get what he wanted. In this instance the other riders dug in and told Michelin and by extension Rossi to get fucked and that they wouldn't roll over and submit.
Again, opinion and conjuncture (which you are entitled to)

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rid...crisis/#page-8
This article states that the easiest way to fix Rossi's problems would be a new tyre. Strangely that was what they tried to have happen and what did eventually happen.

Why would Michelin cook up a heap of tyres in time for the Argentina race when according to Goubert himself only 2 riders complained about the front tyre?
The two riders were at Qatar, he states that a host of other riders (8 from memory) asked for another tyre inbetween the rounds.
This doesn't actually explain why they brought one though - You are going with it was to help Rossi, I think it's more likely they were trying to avoid looking bad as they had realised they had fucked up

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Let's also consider that the only tyre with the new stiffer carcass that Rossi preferred available was the soft option. That according to this Italian source (https://www.gpone.com/en/2017/04/08/...inos-tyre.html) would only have been an advantage to the m1 with Rossi being the only one on the m1 who would have preferred that option. Michelin may have only had the capability to manufacture 1 tyre option with that carcass but just another strange coincidence I guess that the soft option they produced would likely only benefit Rossi.
I believe this to be entirely incorrect - Rossi never preferred a soft compound front tyre back then

Quote:
Despite the fact that the construction of the tire suits Rossi better, he believes, he fears that the rubber may still be too soft to fix his woes.
"We are in big, big trouble," he told reporters. The problem was the same as he had had during testing and at Qatar.
"I always have a lot of movement in the front, but especially I am not able to enter the corner fast." He was not sure whether it was the tire or the bike, but that question could only be answered by trying the tire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Now the infamous tyre vote. The riders/safety commission essentially refused to test the #70 tyre until they were back in Europe. They tested the tyre in Jerez. Rossi DID NOT abstain from the vote he voted for the new tyre.
The three that voted against the tyre were Lorenzo, Vinales and the third one may have been Espagaro I can't recall who it was exactly.

The revised tyre was then used from Mugello onwards. Not only did that completely fuck Vinales' championship, though recent history shows he probably would have done that himself anyway, but in an ironic twist it totally derailed Rossi's championship charge. Sure Rossi got his only win of the season on the #70 tyre but he got the same amount of podiums from Mugello onwards as he had in the first 5 races.
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
So you're statement of facts were not actually fact for the most part, just a wrong recollection in then end, which is fine it was over 3 years ago. All of this isn't proof of a Rossi conspiracy but when you consider how often things have happened in the past that either disadvantage Rossi, give Rossi an advantage or both it doesn't take Einstein to see until it was crystal clear he would never win another title, Dorna often helped to stack the deck in Rossi's favour.
I've said above that I was gong from memory and some of the details appeared to have been squiffy.
However, I still think the direction of my post was correct.

You're inclined to believe that this was all done in an attempt to make Rossi competitive again for one last shot, I go down the path of people trying to cover incompetence/fuckups and Dorna having their usual level of control/scrutiny/tendency to make things up as they go along
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November 17th, 2020, 05:34 PM   #48
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Yes, I think it was Pol who remarked about the unlikelihood of Michelin bringing another lot of tires to Argentina for him.
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November 17th, 2020, 07:26 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca View Post
I'll confirm that I was working from memory when I posted and you are correct that the new tyres were brought to Argentina they got stuck in customs so weren't actually available for the Friday sessions

Regardgin crashes, I don't have stats with me, but I'm sure that the opening rounds of the 2017 season (including pre-season testing and free practice sessions) saw a huge amount of front end crashes (I'll have to dig into this)


I think this is just semantics now - He knew what they were discussing at the safety commission and still chose not to go.


I believe that the reason given that there wasn't enough time to evaluate 4 front tyres (as they were not available for Friday's sessions and Saturday was looking wet).
No one in the safety commission disagreed.

I've had to resort to google and grab a quote from Cal



But anyway, the decision was made not to allow them to be tested


You may be right there, I had remembered it as Pol but it could well have been Aleix. One of them did have issues with it all (that's not to say they were right of course)


This is purely opinion and conjuncture (doesn't mean its wrong though).
The riders I know who were reported as asking for the 'new' tyre were Rossi, Crutchlow, Iannone, Pedrosa and Marquez (although I believe that Marc actually just wanted a different compound, not a different construction



Again, opinion and conjuncture (which you are entitled to)


The two riders were at Qatar, he states that a host of other riders (8 from memory) asked for another tyre inbetween the rounds.
This doesn't actually explain why they brought one though - You are going with it was to help Rossi, I think it's more likely they were trying to avoid looking bad as they had realised they had fucked up


I believe this to be entirely incorrect - Rossi never preferred a soft compound front tyre back then






Agreed


I've said above that I was gong from memory and some of the details appeared to have been squiffy.
However, I still think the direction of my post was correct.

You're inclined to believe that this was all done in an attempt to make Rossi competitive again for one last shot, I go down the path of people trying to cover incompetence/fuckups and Dorna having their usual level of control/scrutiny/tendency to make things up as they go along
Dorna don’t contrive results, it would be commercial suicide for them to attempt to do so and be found out doing so apart from anything else.

Tires/tyres are very important in premier class gp bike racing, and imo as someone who perhaps unwisely posted on here that the way to stop Stoner was to take away his preferred tire in advance of events, even allowing for my biases as a Stoner and Lorenzo fan on the basis of actual events some elite riders get to have tires available to them which suit them and others don’t. MM prior to this year has rather supervened the tires however, as per Birdman he just rides whatever tires he is given to the limit, which is beyond the limit for other riders.

Last edited by michaelm; November 17th, 2020 at 07:31 PM.
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November 17th, 2020, 10:53 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca View Post
I'll confirm that I was working from memory when I posted and you are correct that the new tyres were brought to Argentina they got stuck in customs so weren't actually available for the Friday sessions

Regardgin crashes, I don't have stats with me, but I'm sure that the opening rounds of the 2017 season (including pre-season testing and free practice sessions) saw a huge amount of front end crashes (I'll have to dig into this)


I think this is just semantics now - He knew what they were discussing at the safety commission and still chose not to go.


I believe that the reason given that there wasn't enough time to evaluate 4 front tyres (as they were not available for Friday's sessions and Saturday was looking wet).
No one in the safety commission disagreed.

I've had to resort to google and grab a quote from Cal



But anyway, the decision was made not to allow them to be tested


You may be right there, I had remembered it as Pol but it could well have been Aleix. One of them did have issues with it all (that's not to say they were right of course)


This is purely opinion and conjuncture (doesn't mean its wrong though).
The riders I know who were reported as asking for the 'new' tyre were Rossi, Crutchlow, Iannone, Pedrosa and Marquez (although I believe that Marc actually just wanted a different compound, not a different construction



Again, opinion and conjuncture (which you are entitled to)


The two riders were at Qatar, he states that a host of other riders (8 from memory) asked for another tyre inbetween the rounds.
This doesn't actually explain why they brought one though - You are going with it was to help Rossi, I think it's more likely they were trying to avoid looking bad as they had realised they had fucked up


I believe this to be entirely incorrect - Rossi never preferred a soft compound front tyre back then






Agreed


I've said above that I was gong from memory and some of the details appeared to have been squiffy.
However, I still think the direction of my post was correct.

You're inclined to believe that this was all done in an attempt to make Rossi competitive again for one last shot, I go down the path of people trying to cover incompetence/fuckups and Dorna having their usual level of control/scrutiny/tendency to make things up as they go along
First I would like to say I probably came at you a but hard yesterday. I do apologise. Was not having a good day yesterday. I also don't know how to multi quote so each paragraph should line up with the corresponding paragraph in your post.

2017 may have had a lot of front end crashes but really that was a continuation of 2016. The way I recall it is that there was a lot of unexplainable front end crashes in 2016 that had riders and teams at a loss. I remember Rossi had a strange one at COTA. I remember there being riders saying that they checked the data and they braked at the exact same point on track in the exact same way but lost the front with no warning.

I don't think it is semantics at all. He didn't abstain, he didn't go because he stopped going after he kicked Marquez of his bike in Malaysia.

As pointed out in the article I linked, the technical issue of the tyres was not in fact a safety issue at all. If you have video pass and assuming it hasn't been edited you should go back and watch the pre race press conference. A lot was said, with riders being abnormally open about why the tyre was brought.

It could have been Pol, I don't want to go as far as saying the brothers are the same person but their behaviour often mirrors one another. As you said it doesn't make them right but riders have commented in passing about things such as that before. For most of them though they won't comment publicly and face the wrath of the Valeban and who can blame them?

As you point out riders did complain about the tyre from Qatar, however Goubert was inconsistent and each day the number of how many riders came to him directly after the race grew. I think you're right that Marquez asked about a harder compound not a harder carcass, though it was implied by him and may have been by other that the riders wanted a harder compound not a harder carcass. My issue is Goubert lied, the riders essentially called him out for lying and he was caught red handed.

It was an opinion, I did preface that by writing IMO. Only because I think it was really the first time we saw an obvious and public pushback from the riders to stop an action they saw (at least some of them did) that was being pushed on Rossi's behalf/for Rossi. You also have to remember at the time some Rossi fans did say that they only stopped the tyres to disadvantage Rossi.

You're right it doesn't explain why they bought one to the very next event. I am going with the Rossi reason, Rossi winning the title would have meant millions to Dorna and Michelin. They have reasons to give him what he wants. Rossi criticising Michelin tyres could have cost them millions, I don't know what their turnover on motorbike tyres is like but how many fans do you think would say to themselves Rossi said Michelin are shit so I'll get Stones/Pirelli etc.

Possibly but the m1 often including Rossi did run tyres that were softer than Honda could use. Rubber in the context of the quote could refer to the carcass/construction of the tyre.

We aren't going to agree on the direction of your post being correct or incorrect

I have no doubt that Dorna and Michelin are incompetent. But often as I have pointed out, their incompetence aligns with Rossi's wants or needs. I do believe Dorna have worked to help Rossi win and/or be competitive. There's plenty of instances from the Bridgestone saga, getting Rossi back to Yamaha to not giving Rossi a DQ in Malaysia etc. that cards have been stacked in his favour. He was and to a large degree still is their cash cow. Stacking the deck in his favour is different to contriving results.
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