Originally Posted by Bern1

I think there are parallels between Senna and both MM and VR actually. Leaving the god side out of it, all were so full of self belief as to think they somehow deserved to win. And be willing to put other competitors off the track if necessary in the process.

This is one major reason I preferred Prost to Senna and Lorenzo over Rossi. In the premier class, MM has showed the speed and skill to not do that as of late, he is showing progress on that score.

Originally Posted by Keshav

Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally fucked up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ass a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.

Originally Posted by warthog1

I don't see it that way.
Find the limit in practice so as not to crash in the race.
He has done so with pretty successful results.
From a purely selfish spectator perspective watching the front end saves and the resulting ability to push the front like nobody has ever done before has been jaw dropping for me.
I have loved it and have loved the dogged will to win despite what the bike is doing, to just push through and force the bike to his will.

Originally Posted by Keshav

Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally fucked up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ass a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.

Originally Posted by birdman

From memory he didn’t crash often in 2014. He hasn’t had a Bridgestone front or the best bike since then, and yet:

2013 - champion
2014 - champion
2015 - 3rd or whatever
2016 - champion
2017 - champion
2018 - champion
2019 - champion
2020 - injured

Overall his risk management ability seams reasonably adept from the comfort of my armchair, but I guess we may debate if only for ........(insert reason here) he coulda woulda shoulda won them all.

For 2020 I don’t think he was conned into anything or lacking of appreciating the risks involved. He had the chance to try and win 5 straight and 7 overall. How many riders in the history of the sport have even been in that position?

Originally Posted by michaelm

Sure, his saves during races are epic, and his finding the limit practice crashes have generally been gentle lowsides, still leaving room for bad luck once the crash occurs but not such an absurd strategy as it might seem.

This latest injury had an element of bad luck in him being hit by the bike but occurred for no good reason, he was trying to demonstrate something to FQ whom he had absolutely no chance of catching before the end of the race in a race where he had already had a warning in an early race incident which is why he had to come through the field in the first place. Iirc the major shoulder injury occurred in similar circumstances trying to demonstrate something to FQ, and was a substantial highside; I remember most of the current field and Casey Stoner who was not averse to pushing the limits himself thinking it was fairly stupid.

Originally Posted by birdman

From memory he didn’t crash often in 2014. He hasn’t had a Bridgestone front or the best bike since then, and yet:

2013 - champion
2014 - champion
2015 - 3rd or whatever
2016 - champion
2017 - champion
2018 - champion
2019 - champion
2020 - injured

Overall his risk management ability seams reasonably adept from the comfort of my armchair, but I guess we may debate if only for ........(insert reason here) he coulda woulda shoulda won them all.

For 2020 I don’t think he was conned into anything or lacking of appreciating the risks involved. He had the chance to try and win 5 straight and 7 overall. How many riders in the history of the sport have even been in that position?

Originally Posted by Keshav

No specific recollections regarding that stat in 2014 - but overall, he has been a regular crasher in FP.

Not debating whether he is talented and capable of winning championships. That's undeniable, but I do believe if he were a bit more pragmatic in assessing risk, he could have still won those years and sustained less injury. Given he didn't just win one championship and then retire, it's not a big leap in logic to assume MM wants to win multiple championships and since he didn't stop at say 6 - I think we can say he's aiming at beating Rossi's 9, and that entails longevity, and his is seriously in doubt. Hence my arm-chair critique of his racecraft/strategy in terms of his over-all objectives. In terms of demoralizing his competitors and putting on a good show for the fans, he may have sacrificed his long-term goals by over-icing the cake. Style over substance as it were.