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November 27th, 2020, 09:14 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Bern1 View Post
I think there are parallels between Senna and both MM and VR actually. Leaving the god side out of it, all were so full of self belief as to think they somehow deserved to win. And be willing to put other competitors off the track if necessary in the process.

This is one major reason I preferred Prost to Senna and Lorenzo over Rossi. In the premier class, MM has showed the speed and skill to not do that as of late, he is showing progress on that score.
I saw this over on the F1 YouTube channel the other day. It's only the beginning of the race, and the way Senna was defending against a car clearly much faster, was well....you can draw your own conclusions...



Some of those chop blocks I have to imagine being highly unsettling to have to deal with. Though that's the one thing I always marveled at with Senna was no matter how wide a track was, he knew how to shrink it down and make his car seem twice as wide. Can't say I would have enjoyed racing against him though. It does remind me quite a bit of Marquez and a younger Rossi with leaving no space for competitors.
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November 27th, 2020, 09:34 AM   #42
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Yup, right on the edge of “legality.” Over the edge actually. Warranted a waving blue flag. Which would have had no impact of course, even if there was no chance of it actually being shown.

I still don’t like Senna, even if I do still admire his skill.
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November 27th, 2020, 02:59 PM   #43
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Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally fucked up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ass a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.
I don't see it that way.
Find the limit in practice so as not to crash in the race.
He has done so with pretty successful results.
From a purely selfish spectator perspective watching the front end saves and the resulting ability to push the front like nobody has ever done before has been jaw dropping for me.
I have loved it and have loved the dogged will to win despite what the bike is doing, to just push through and force the bike to his will.
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November 27th, 2020, 04:32 PM   #44
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I don't see it that way.
Find the limit in practice so as not to crash in the race.
He has done so with pretty successful results.
From a purely selfish spectator perspective watching the front end saves and the resulting ability to push the front like nobody has ever done before has been jaw dropping for me.
I have loved it and have loved the dogged will to win despite what the bike is doing, to just push through and force the bike to his will.
Sure, his saves during races are epic, and his finding the limit practice crashes have generally been gentle lowsides, still leaving room for bad luck once the crash occurs but not such an absurd strategy as it might seem.

This latest injury had an element of bad luck in him being hit by the bike but occurred for no good reason, he was trying to demonstrate something to FQ whom he had absolutely no chance of catching before the end of the race in a race where he had already had a warning in an early race incident which is why he had to come through the field in the first place. Iirc the major shoulder injury occurred in similar circumstances trying to demonstrate something to FQ, and was a substantial highside; I remember most of the current field and Casey Stoner who was not averse to pushing the limits himself thinking it was fairly stupid.
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November 27th, 2020, 05:35 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally fucked up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ass a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.
From memory he didnít crash often in 2014. He hasnít had a Bridgestone front or the best bike since then, and yet:

2013 - champion
2014 - champion
2015 - 3rd or whatever
2016 - champion
2017 - champion
2018 - champion
2019 - champion
2020 - injured

Overall his risk management ability seams reasonably adept from the comfort of my armchair, but I guess we may debate if only for ........(insert reason here) he coulda woulda shoulda won them all.

For 2020 I donít think he was conned into anything or lacking of appreciating the risks involved. He had the chance to try and win 5 straight and 7 overall. How many riders in the history of the sport have even been in that position?
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November 27th, 2020, 08:19 PM   #46
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From memory he didn’t crash often in 2014. He hasn’t had a Bridgestone front or the best bike since then, and yet:

2013 - champion
2014 - champion
2015 - 3rd or whatever
2016 - champion
2017 - champion
2018 - champion
2019 - champion
2020 - injured

Overall his risk management ability seams reasonably adept from the comfort of my armchair, but I guess we may debate if only for ........(insert reason here) he coulda woulda shoulda won them all.

For 2020 I don’t think he was conned into anything or lacking of appreciating the risks involved. He had the chance to try and win 5 straight and 7 overall. How many riders in the history of the sport have even been in that position?
Sure, as you have said previously even 5 straight wasn't what he was after, but rather 6 straight.

Imo he did cost himself a title in 2015 by trying to win every race as he had pretty much done in 2014, if he had settled for the position he was in when he crashed out over-riding a problematic bike arithmetically at least he would have won the the title, but again as you say his results overall speak for themselves. My issue is with the crashes which caused the major shoulder injury, and the humeral fracture this year, which were not really in pursuit of race wins, but rather a result of trying to prove a point he didn't need to prove and which he would fairly obviously, even before FQ's late season form this year, have proved in fairly short order anyway without taking risks as big as those he took which led to the crashes.
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November 27th, 2020, 08:26 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Sure, his saves during races are epic, and his finding the limit practice crashes have generally been gentle lowsides, still leaving room for bad luck once the crash occurs but not such an absurd strategy as it might seem.

This latest injury had an element of bad luck in him being hit by the bike but occurred for no good reason, he was trying to demonstrate something to FQ whom he had absolutely no chance of catching before the end of the race in a race where he had already had a warning in an early race incident which is why he had to come through the field in the first place. Iirc the major shoulder injury occurred in similar circumstances trying to demonstrate something to FQ, and was a substantial highside; I remember most of the current field and Casey Stoner who was not averse to pushing the limits himself thinking it was fairly stupid.
Meh, he is human. I don't know exactly what was going through his mind but yeah fair chance he was trying to underline his dominance even though it has been clear for all to see anyway.
I prefer it to be set with speed on the track rather than some of the fan based machinations or press comment that others have tried to use.

What was more stupid was the early return.
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November 28th, 2020, 06:51 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman View Post
From memory he didn’t crash often in 2014. He hasn’t had a Bridgestone front or the best bike since then, and yet:

2013 - champion
2014 - champion
2015 - 3rd or whatever
2016 - champion
2017 - champion
2018 - champion
2019 - champion
2020 - injured

Overall his risk management ability seams reasonably adept from the comfort of my armchair, but I guess we may debate if only for ........(insert reason here) he coulda woulda shoulda won them all.

For 2020 I don’t think he was conned into anything or lacking of appreciating the risks involved. He had the chance to try and win 5 straight and 7 overall. How many riders in the history of the sport have even been in that position?
No specific recollections regarding that stat in 2014 - but overall, he has been a regular crasher in FP.

Not debating whether he is talented and capable of winning championships. That's undeniable, but I do believe if he were a bit more pragmatic in assessing risk, he could have still won those years and sustained less injury. Given he didn't just win one championship and then retire, it's not a big leap in logic to assume MM wants to win multiple championships and since he didn't stop at say 6 - I think we can say he's aiming at beating Rossi's 9, and that entails longevity, and his is seriously in doubt. Hence my arm-chair critique of his racecraft/strategy in terms of his over-all objectives. In terms of demoralizing his competitors and putting on a good show for the fans, he may have sacrificed his long-term goals by over-icing the cake. Style over substance as it were.
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Last edited by Keshav; November 28th, 2020 at 10:54 AM.
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November 28th, 2020, 02:57 PM   #49
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Pretty hard for one whose style involves pushing the front over the limit to be that much more pragmatic in assessing risk imo.
He pushes so hard in practice so he is clearer where the limit is in the race.
His ability to push the front of the machine so hard is a large factor behind his dominance.

Is it possible to seperate that and still be such a force?
I am not sure that it is.
He may knock it back a bit but I just don't see it disappearing. It seems integral to his approach and style.
Yes it aint risk free, easy or safe. I don't see it disappearing entirely should he come back though.

Every multi championship rider I have watched has tried to establish dominance and hold onto it.
It is part of who they are.
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November 28th, 2020, 03:45 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
No specific recollections regarding that stat in 2014 - but overall, he has been a regular crasher in FP.

Not debating whether he is talented and capable of winning championships. That's undeniable, but I do believe if he were a bit more pragmatic in assessing risk, he could have still won those years and sustained less injury. Given he didn't just win one championship and then retire, it's not a big leap in logic to assume MM wants to win multiple championships and since he didn't stop at say 6 - I think we can say he's aiming at beating Rossi's 9, and that entails longevity, and his is seriously in doubt. Hence my arm-chair critique of his racecraft/strategy in terms of his over-all objectives. In terms of demoralizing his competitors and putting on a good show for the fans, he may have sacrificed his long-term goals by over-icing the cake. Style over substance as it were.
Agreed, but this is woulda coulda shoulda.

Iím sure if you suggested to Marquez that it would be better for him to win world titles without crashing he would agree. Then he would hop on the bike and the real Marquez would tell the whimpy conservative Marquez (assuming that side of him even exists) to shut the hell up and let him get on with the business of riding the 350 KPH missile. Which perhaps is a good thing, despite the injuries. Afterall it has been proven time and time again doubt is the real enemy of a rider, once doubt creeps in itís a case of game over.
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