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November 26th, 2020, 08:44 PM   #31
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November 26th, 2020, 10:08 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Yes, was watching live on TV when Senna had that crash, it was immediately obvious matters were dire, and it straight away consigned Wayne Rainey’s career ending crash to the second worst thing I had seen watching motorsport live, at that time anyway.

Whilst appreciating Senna’s ridiculous talent I was more of a fan of Proust with his more cerebral approach back then. Alain as you are no doubt aware said something rather prophetic some time before, Ayrton has a problem, he doesn’t think he can die.
Except Proust would never have taken a flawed 07 Ducati to a championship, which makes Stoner more akin to Senna.
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November 26th, 2020, 10:21 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
Marc is 100% to blame for his situation. He has always shown poor risk management skills.
🎣 lame, try again Uccio, where’s the chart to prove it.
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November 27th, 2020, 01:26 AM   #34
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Starting to get pretty concerned that he ain't coming back at the level he was. Worried that the injury is potentially career ending too.
I hope not, as I have really enjoyed watching what he can do on a bike.
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November 27th, 2020, 04:58 AM   #35
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�� lame, try again Uccio, where’s the chart to prove it.
Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally fucked up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ass a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.
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November 27th, 2020, 05:40 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Yes, was watching live on TV when Senna had that crash, it was immediately obvious matters were dire, and it straight away consigned Wayne Rainey’s career ending crash to the second worst thing I had seen watching motorsport live, at that time anyway.

Whilst appreciating Senna’s ridiculous talent I was more of a fan of Proust with his more cerebral approach back then. Alain as you are no doubt aware said something rather prophetic some time before, Ayrton has a problem, he doesn’t think he can die.
I think what threw people off was when the helicopter was circling over his wrecked car, and you could see his head move briefly, it created a false sense of hope for those watching on TV. But that aside, it was clear that it wasn't a "good" crash in that you felt it wasn't that bad. I feel in particular for Damon Hill because I cannot fathom the bravery it took to get back in his car for the restart not knowing if something on the car failed for Senna, and whether or not he'd be at risk too.

I remember Prost saying that. It's chilling with hindsight. My late friend was most decidedly not a fan of Senna from the beginning when he made his debut in 1984. I asked him once about it because in theory, Senna was the sort of driver he would have gravitated towards. He told me when he first saw interviews with Senna, and heard him going on about God, he said he felt that was going to be a problem. That's not meant to be a knock on anyone who believes, but rather as Alain said, it can lead to a particular mentality that puts other racers at risk...as we ultimately did see over the years with Senna.

Regarding Prost also, I always found it interesting that even though Senna was easily the best qualifier to ever drive in the sport, during races, Prost had 41 fastest laps in his career while Senna only had 19. Prost was unbelievably fast, so much to the point that people watching at the circuit couldn't understand how he was at the top of the timesheets when he appeared to do nothing that would convey that he was on a quick one. The late Denis Jenkinson for Motorsport Magazine said in 1983 at Spa that watching Prost was a rather dull proposition, yet he was by and far away the fastest man on the circuit and couldn't figure it out at all.
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Last edited by JPSLotus; November 27th, 2020 at 05:46 AM.
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November 27th, 2020, 05:52 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
I think what threw people off was when the helicopter was circling over his wrecked car, and you could see his head move briefly, it created a false sense of hope for those watching on TV. But that aside, it was clear that it wasn't a "good" crash in that you felt it wasn't that bad. I feel in particular for Damon Hill because I cannot fathom the bravery it took to get back in his car for the restart not knowing if something on the car failed for Senna, and whether or not he'd be at risk too.

I remember Prost saying that. It's chilling with hindsight. My late friend was most decidedly not a fan of Senna from the beginning when he made his debut in 1984. I asked him once about it because in theory, Senna was the sort of driver he would have gravitated towards. He told me when he first saw interviews with Senna, and heard him going on about God, he said he felt that was going to be a problem. That's not meant to be a knock on anyone who believes, but rather as Alain said, it can lead to a particular mentality that puts other racers at risk...as we ultimately did see over the years with Senna.

Regarding Prost also, I always found it interesting that even though Senna was easily the best qualifier to ever drive in the sport, during races, Prost had 41 fastest laps in his career while Senna only had 19. Prost was unbelievably fast, so much to the point that people watching at the circuit couldn't understand how he was at the top of the timesheets when he appeared to do nothing that would convey that he was on a quick one. The late Denis Jenkinson for Motorsport Magazine said in 1983 at Spa that watching Prost was a rather dull proposition, yet he was by and far away the fastest man on the circuit and couldn't figure it out at all.
Yes, I was aware of that statistic. My theory was always that Alain may just have been outright faster on a clear track, but wasn't prepared to take the risks Senna did whether on a qualifying lap or on passing moves during races.
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November 27th, 2020, 06:06 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Hmmmm... I don't know. I think there's been ample evidence substantiate that theory. That Moto 2 crash that totally fucked up another rider is a pretty dramatic instance. And there's the fact that his method for finding the limits of the bike and his skill-set has been to repeatedly crash in practice, with little to no consideration for his own well-being. I thought that was egregiously bad risk management, in particular - in the early days in the premiere class when he was absolutely toying with the best riders in the field. He didn't really need to win by such dramatic margins. To me it frequently seemed that he pushed that hard just to rub it in the faces of the other riders. If Marquez had been a wee bit more mature and pragmatic, he could have won just as many championships and suffered far fewer injuries.

Stoner used to love to run away from the pack and make them all look like chumps, but it bit him in the ass a few times as well. It is of course hard to actually know, when that kind of run-away-from-pack, 14 second lead is a method of discouraging or mentally crushing competitors and when it's simply that the rider has fallen into a rhythm and locked into the zone. I tend to think it's a bit of both.
Jumkie dubbed him, rightly imo, murder Marc in his early days, particularly in view of the Willairot incident for which his crew who weren't teenagers at the time also bear a share of the responsibility, again imo.

I believe he has shown far more concern for his fellow riders in latter years, but after riding somewhat smarter in regard to his own well being for a time regressed to being reckless with his own safety. It didn't require oracular ability to consider this might eventually bite him, most of us on here considered it not unlikely, and the 2 recent crashes which caused the significant shoulder injury and the humeral fracture were totally unnecessary, both aimed at intimidating FQ rather than involving anything even vaguely sensible. Riding with the humeral fracture was total bad judgement, both from him and his doctors unless he totally ignored them which admittedly is entirely possible. Some doctor somewhere must have passed him fit however, which astounded misfit for one at the time.
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Last edited by michaelm; November 27th, 2020 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Spelling
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November 27th, 2020, 08:10 AM   #39
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I think there are parallels between Senna and both MM and VR actually. Leaving the god side out of it, all were so full of self belief as to think they somehow deserved to win. And be willing to put other competitors off the track if necessary in the process.

This is one major reason I preferred Prost to Senna and Lorenzo over Rossi. In the premier class, MM has showed the speed and skill to not do that as of late, he is showing progress on that score.
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November 27th, 2020, 09:00 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern1 View Post
I think there are parallels between Senna and both MM and VR actually. Leaving the god side out of it, all were so full of self belief as to think they somehow deserved to win. And be willing to put other competitors off the track if necessary in the process.

This is one major reason I preferred Prost to Senna and Lorenzo over Rossi. In the premier class, MM has showed the speed and skill to not do that as of late, he is showing progress on that score.
All these personalities will go dark under pressure. The measure of the character isn't when things are going well, but if things aren't going so well. Will they cross that 'line' in an effort to come out on top? MM has had his races and incidents in MotoGP where I wouldn't be so hasty in assuming he will no longer races with disregard for the other riders with all the sorries etc. afterwards that are of course, empty IMO, if the same thing is later repeated. His race in Argentina 2018 comes immediately to mind.

The thing is that the other riders are typically reluctant to be critical since they would be criticising a rival who is winning when they aren't. It inevitably comes across as a begrudging attitude which is exactly how VR is seen, in addition, of course, to his throwing stones in his glass house.

Last edited by misfit; November 27th, 2020 at 09:09 AM.
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