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November 15th, 2020, 06:31 AM   #21
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Itís the golden goose thing. The show must always go on from the point of view of those who really benefit monetarily from that,
I'm sure that must have played a role although IMO, the primary factor at play was MM's hunger to race and not let potential points slip by. He was already on zero points down in an unstable season with an unstable calendar because of the COVID-19 pandemic.

The plate on his humerus was really long which conferred strength. However, it would have involved stripping more periosteum from the bone and hence increasing the likelihood of inadequate blood supply to the bone for healing. Perhaps they actually intended an early return but from where I sit, the writing was on the wall that the mechanics of the plating was not compatible with the sort of forces his humerus would have to put up with in race weekend conditions. I expected either the plate to loosen or to break with fatiguing.

MM's situation will likely be a wakeup reminder to riders and fans who think that a quick recovery is always the rule. Not so. Each injury is its own and like Rossi and his ageing, you simply can't overcome the body's limitations.
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November 16th, 2020, 04:21 AM   #22
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Marc is 100% to blame for his situation. He has always shown poor risk management skills.
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November 26th, 2020, 08:28 AM   #23
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The true Marquez blunder that caused lasting damage

Reading this article was rather distressing for me. If the comments follow the usual paths they do as Autosport articles typically do, MM will likely end up with another operation and be sidelined for at least another 6 months.

A colossal error was made.
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November 26th, 2020, 11:36 AM   #24
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Just read the article. Of course we really don't know what is going on however grim it sounds. However, it would indeed appear that "a colossal error was made," as Misfit has stated.

If this is true, it really does go right to the heart of the matter: MM, since he was so extraordinarily talented and achieved such fantastic results during the course of his career, by and by came to believe his own legend and that the natural laws of physics and chance didn't apply to him any longer, if they ever did.

We have seen this before with Senna, who famously said that God was on his side. Which was true, until it wasn't. The steering column may or may not have broken that day at Imola, but the path to disaster was set in motion by the continued risk taking as if he was some kind of uber human being.

That said, I still think that if it is humanly possible to recover from this, MM has the determination and discipline to do what it takes.

I hope he does.
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November 26th, 2020, 01:07 PM   #25
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Following the basic facts, it has been 5 months since the injury. That is approx 20 weeks. He could have had up to 3 different consecutive typical breaks, allow time for healing and rehab, and be back to racing in that time. IOW's, it's been a long time and the more time passes, the more clear it is we're dealing with a non-union. His trip to the Mayo Clinic to try out the new and fancy technologies to encourage healing is another sign that things aren't OK.

I personally expect an announcement regarding surgery. The delay is likely because it's now VERY scary indeed!

The last time I witnessed this sort of situation was with Robert Kubica. The difference was that Kubica's injury was severe at the outset but the understandable optimism was there. However, reality set in and it's actually amazing that he races again, although we know he hasn't ever been the same.

A bone grafting etc. will be a big set back. 6 months back after that is a generous offer as far as I'm concerned. My mind as a fan is ready come whatever. This is one time where I really hope to breath a sigh of relief and be able to see MM at his best again.

This is how suddenly and often quite innocuously things can suddenly change, but the show must go on.
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November 26th, 2020, 02:22 PM   #26
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Just read the article. Of course we really don't know what is going on however grim it sounds. However, it would indeed appear that "a colossal error was made," as Misfit has stated.

If this is true, it really does go right to the heart of the matter: MM, since he was so extraordinarily talented and achieved such fantastic results during the course of his career, by and by came to believe his own legend and that the natural laws of physics and chance didn't apply to him any longer, if they ever did.

We have seen this before with Senna, who famously said that God was on his side. Which was true, until it wasn't. The steering column may or may not have broken that day at Imola, but the path to disaster was set in motion by the continued risk taking as if he was some kind of uber human being.

That said, I still think that if it is humanly possible to recover from this, MM has the determination and discipline to do what it takes.

I hope he does.
Regarding Senna, I don't believe the steering column broke prior to the crash at Tamburello. While yes it was lacking structural integrity, and would have broken at some point, when it broke it was a result of hitting the wall at the angle it hit at a speed of roughly 130mph.

What did him in was trying to overdrive a car that was aerodynamically unstable. Adrian Newey who designed the FW-16 has said that the aero was a huge problem on the car. Which would also explain it's penchant for displaying understeer and oversteer on track...often on the same lap. Very difficult to drive a Formula One car at race speeds when you don't know what the car is going to do. Prior to the race, Senna warned Damon Hill to take an outside line through Tamburello because of the bumps in the inside of the corner which unsettled the car tremendously. In spite of that advice to Hill, he chose to take the inside line. Michael Schumacher said on the restart lap, Senna almost lost the car going through Tamburello but managed to save it. Of course lap 7 was a different story. When you watch the onboard video from Michael's Benetton, as Senna moves to take the inside line, everything looks normal for a moment, but then you see the floor spark from bottoming out on the bumps, then you see the car oversteer for a moment a the rear steps out, then all of a sudden the car veers straight off to the right into the wall. Onboard telemetry said that at the point the car started oversteering, Senna cut the throttle presumably in an effort to save the slide. But when the car regains grip and starts heading to the right, he got on the brakes immediately. He was able to cut the speed from 190mph to 130mph before impact. Even had the suspension arm not pierced his helmet, the basal skull fracture would have killed him. So the outcome of death was unavoidable based on the way he got the wall since the car absorbed the energy rather than it being dissipated. I've also heard from someone in the know that Senna's response to ill-handling cars going back to his days at Lotus was to lower the ride height as far as he could go. Combine that with the bumps in Tamburello as well as a to that point aerodynamically unstable car, it was a recipe for disaster at Imola. I do think the ride height of the Williams was an issue as Formula One quickly introduced the skid plank rule to all cars not too long after which essentially acted as a mandated minimum ride height rule since there were rules on how much wear the skid plank on the center line of the floor was allowed to have by the end of a grand prix.

I don't think it was so much Senna taking risks at Imola as it was a perfect storm of events from the car design to the track surface to the ride height. The steering column was a way to just lay the blame somewhere on something. Of course the outcome of that race was what it was.
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November 26th, 2020, 02:52 PM   #27
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Thanks JPS, that is the most cogent analysis of that event I have read.

Yes, he was overdriving the car, as he often did and got away with up to that day. This is the same thing that MM was doing on a regular basis up until that day as well. Fortunately not a fatality and he may therefore have another opportunity.

FWIW, I have never believed that the steering failed on that car prior to impact. In this case, I was trying to provide some cover for the inevitable onslaught of Senna fans wanting to point fingers at Williams for the responsibility instead of their man. Perhaps with the passing of a quarter century, this may be overly prudent on my part and entirely unnecessary on this forum.

Similarly, I imagine that with the passing of time, we may see less vitriol from the yellow horde regarding the causes of vr's diminished performance at different times, though I don't expect we're quite there yet.
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November 26th, 2020, 03:38 PM   #28
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Thanks JPS, that is the most cogent analysis of that event I have read.

Yes, he was overdriving the car, as he often did and got away with up to that day. This is the same thing that MM was doing on a regular basis up until that day as well. Fortunately not a fatality and he may therefore have another opportunity.

FWIW, I have never believed that the steering failed on that car prior to impact. In this case, I was trying to provide some cover for the inevitable onslaught of Senna fans wanting to point fingers at Williams for the responsibility instead of their man. Perhaps with the passing of a quarter century, this may be overly prudent on my part and entirely unnecessary on this forum.

Similarly, I imagine that with the passing of time, we may see less vitriol from the yellow horde regarding the causes of vr's diminished performance at different times, though I don't expect we're quite there yet.
I think on this forum is not necessary as it's a low-trafficked site in a niche corner of the internet. I enjoyed Senna quite a bit. Fantastic racer, and the last of a particular era of F1 that's long gone now, but I still miss. That being said, I believe had he learned the most valuable lesson he should have from driving with and against Alain Prost, it would have been to collect the points if you can't win. A lesson Marc Marquez started learning after 2015 ironically, yet forgot in Jerez. If you have a questionable racing machine, just focus on bringing it home till you can get it sorted out. In Senna's car he would have still been behind Michael heading into Imola, but he would have had points instead of two DNF's.

I think in Rossi's case to your last point, since it appears to be a foregone conclusion that he'll have a team in the top class as soon as he retires, his fans are never going to leave. They'll just keep riding that train for all it's worth.
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November 26th, 2020, 07:56 PM   #29
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Ironically, itís a lesson that Prost himself had to learn in 1984 with Lauda.....
They will all learn in time.
I have great hopes for the class of relative newcomers 2020 in MotoGP!
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November 26th, 2020, 08:30 PM   #30
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I think on this forum is not necessary as it's a low-trafficked site in a niche corner of the internet. I enjoyed Senna quite a bit. Fantastic racer, and the last of a particular era of F1 that's long gone now, but I still miss. That being said, I believe had he learned the most valuable lesson he should have from driving with and against Alain Prost, it would have been to collect the points if you can't win. A lesson Marc Marquez started learning after 2015 ironically, yet forgot in Jerez. If you have a questionable racing machine, just focus on bringing it home till you can get it sorted out. In Senna's car he would have still been behind Michael heading into Imola, but he would have had points instead of two DNF's.

I think in Rossi's case to your last point, since it appears to be a foregone conclusion that he'll have a team in the top class as soon as he retires, his fans are never going to leave. They'll just keep riding that train for all it's worth.
Yes, was watching live on TV when Senna had that crash, it was immediately obvious matters were dire, and it straight away consigned Wayne Raineyís career ending crash to the second worst thing I had seen watching motorsport live, at that time anyway.

Whilst appreciating Sennaís ridiculous talent I was more of a fan of Proust with his more cerebral approach back then. Alain as you are no doubt aware said something rather prophetic some time before, Ayrton has a problem, he doesnít think he can die.
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