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September 21st, 2020, 12:11 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
I donít disagree about his insight, itís excellent and he was a top rider. His monotone voice puts me to sleep though.

I think at the end of the day they have to set a rule in black and white. Which they did, leave the track limits 3x = warning, 5x = long lap. Deciding whether or not a rider gained an advantage is too arbitrary to apply consistently and as RD have shown theyíre not consistent when handing out penalties that are judgement calls.

I think this weekend Fabios behaviour after the demotion and complaining about the 1x Mir left the track etc has lost him some fans. Not that Iím judging him for it, Iíve done worse in when Iíve felt Iíve been wronged by sports officials. Mir on the other hand continues to gain more fans with his balls and/or precise overtaking.

Another point, after Fabioís tear off ended Jacks race and Pecco believes he hit a tear off that caused him to crash, do tear offs now need to be replaced?
I donít have a great problem with the rule particularly if he got quite a number of warnings and the system which apprises the riders of warnings is robust.

Come to think of it, I would be happy if they made the rule retrospective, extending back to the Laguna Seca 2007 race.
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September 21st, 2020, 02:54 AM   #42
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I'm finding it quite hard to understand track limits penalties.

My read is that if you don't gain any advantage on touching the green you get a warning after 3 occurances, and a long lap penalty when you go off track 2 more times.

However, when apparently you get an advantage you have to drop a position.

It happened to Mir on Austria on the start, and actually at Misano 2 he went on the green just before overtaking Pol Espargaro.

Also at Austria, i tend to agree with Mir and Suzuki that Pol should not be 3rd after going off track. Yes, riders may be pushed out track (was not the case) but if it was gravel there was no way he could come back to be 3rd, 4th or even 5th.
Also, it always happened that way on nobody seemed to care that much.
Jerez is famous, Rossi on gibernau or Marquez on Lorenzo totally sent the opposition off track to gain the position and there was no penalty for the "culprit" or compensation for the "harmed".

So, that said what is the rule after all?
Touching the green while existing last turn to overtake at next turn is to me the obvious example of what i thought was the rule.

Anyway, happy for Mir and i do my mea-culpa because early on the season my guess was that he would not even get closer to what he is doing. At this moment i'm more inclined to love Mir's performances than Fabio.


From the other season surprise, at KTM Oliveira needs desperately to improve qualifying and Binder has to stop crashing. With riders in front he's just almost always out of control pushing way too hard.
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September 21st, 2020, 03:59 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seusouber View Post
I'm finding it quite hard to understand track limits penalties.

My read is that if you don't gain any advantage on touching the green you get a warning after 3 occurances, and a long lap penalty when you go off track 2 more times.

However, when apparently you get an advantage you have to drop a position.

It happened to Mir on Austria on the start, and actually at Misano 2 he went on the green just before overtaking Pol Espargaro.

Also at Austria, i tend to agree with Mir and Suzuki that Pol should not be 3rd after going off track. Yes, riders may be pushed out track (was not the case) but if it was gravel there was no way he could come back to be 3rd, 4th or even 5th.
Also, it always happened that way on nobody seemed to care that much.
Jerez is famous, Rossi on gibernau or Marquez on Lorenzo totally sent the opposition off track to gain the position and there was no penalty for the "culprit" or compensation for the "harmed".

So, that said what is the rule after all?
Touching the green while existing last turn to overtake at next turn is to me the obvious example of what i thought was the rule.

Anyway, happy for Mir and i do my mea-culpa because early on the season my guess was that he would not even get closer to what he is doing. At this moment i'm more inclined to love Mir's performances than Fabio.


From the other season surprise, at KTM Oliveira needs desperately to improve qualifying and Binder has to stop crashing. With riders in front he's just almost always out of control pushing way too hard.
They got themselves tied up by going with the narrative. No way was the thing on Gibernau legal then or now. I strongly suspect MM was well aware he was re-enacting it with Lorenzo (the points gained actually won him the title, although he didn’t deserve to lose due to the PI 2013 debacle as he would have otherwise either of course), and he very definitely pretty much deliberately re-enacted Laguna Seca 2007 and Motegi 2010 as well.

Last edited by michaelm; September 21st, 2020 at 04:04 AM.
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September 21st, 2020, 04:57 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
I donít disagree about his insight, itís excellent and he was a top rider.

Another point, after Fabioís tear off ended Jacks race and Pecco believes he hit a tear off that caused him to crash, do tear offs now need to be replaced?
I have wondered about those for years. Just assumed if nobody was talking about it - it wasn't an issue.
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September 21st, 2020, 07:44 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seusouber View Post
I'm finding it quite hard to understand track limits penalties.

My read is that if you don't gain any advantage on touching the green you get a warning after 3 occurances, and a long lap penalty when you go off track 2 more times.

However, when apparently you get an advantage you have to drop a position.
I thought that was the point of the long lap. It was tricky to know if they'd dropped a position they gained, or if they dropped 1 position, how it didn't let more through, etc. I am sure I saw discussion where the "dropping 1 position" seemed sketchy so they went with "send them on a long lap" instead.

Which might have seemed reasonable, until you have
- Quaterraro just not taking the long lap. Shouldn't the penalty for not doing the punishment be much worse than the initial punishment? If you think you're gonna lose more than 3 seconds, then just don't do it...? That doesn't seem right;
- giving weight to that is that some poor sod in Moto 2 (or 3? so sorry, I'm rubbish eh ) fell off when doing the long lap cos it was so dusty;
- Zarco a few races ago doing the long lap penalty almost as fast as the actual circuit and thereby not losing any position.
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September 21st, 2020, 08:15 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post

I think this weekend Fabios behaviour after the demotion and complaining about the 1x Mir left the track etc has lost him some fans. Not that Iím judging him for it, Iíve done worse in when Iíve felt Iíve been wronged by sports officials. Mir on the other hand continues to gain more fans with his balls and/or precise overtaking.
I have noted now several instances of Fabioís conduct being less than sportsmanlike. Due to youth or impetuousness, he will have to temper this lest it mar his results and/or reputation going forward.

I like him, but Mir is just as likeable with better passing skills for the moment, as noted above.

My measure of conduct is exemplified by Lawson. I never heard him disparaging opponents, making excuses or blaming his team.
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September 21st, 2020, 02:22 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern1 View Post
I have noted now several instances of Fabio’s conduct being less than sportsmanlike. Due to youth or impetuousness, he will have to temper this lest it mar his results and/or reputation going forward.

I like him, but Mir is just as likeable with better passing skills for the moment, as noted above.

My measure of conduct is exemplified by Lawson. I never heard him disparaging opponents, making excuses or blaming his team.
To be fair, those were different times with no social media guys poking
microphones in rider's faces every two seconds. Lawson, a great rider no
doubt, was a kind of dour, not terribly social loner kind of guy, who
if he had a gripe, would not air it, not because he was being politic, but
because he was kind of macho and wouldn't give anyone the satisfaction
of admitting they'd got under his skin.
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Last edited by Keshav; September 21st, 2020 at 04:53 PM.
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September 21st, 2020, 04:03 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furiosa View Post

- Quaterraro just not taking the long lap. Shouldn't the penalty for not doing the punishment be much worse than the initial punishment? If you think you're gonna lose more than 3 seconds, then just don't do it...? That doesn't seem right;

.
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/94...o-loses-podium
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September 21st, 2020, 04:28 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
To be fair, those were different times with no social media guys poking
microphones if rider's faces every two seconds. Lawson, a great rider no
doubt, was a kind of dour, not terribly social loner kind of guy, who
if he had a gripe, would not air it, not because he was being politic, but
because he was kind of macho and wouldn't give anyone the satisfaction
of admitting they'd got under his skin.
This may be the case and it's another reason for me to admire Lawson.

Loners or not, these guys are supposed to be warriors after all. If they can't handle social media types.....

I really don't want to hear any whining about not getting a dashboard warning for exceeding track limits, or anything else for that matter.
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September 21st, 2020, 10:48 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern1 View Post
This may be the case and it's another reason for me to admire Lawson.

Loners or not, these guys are supposed to be warriors after all. If they can't handle social media types.....

I really don't want to hear any whining about not getting a dashboard warning for exceeding track limits, or anything else for that matter.
I would add that I do believe if the warning came up on the dashboard then it must have been sent by RD. That he didn't get the message means one of two things happened. Either he didn't see it or there was a failure on his dashboard. If it is a failure of his dashboard then the responsibility is solely on his team. Like if the rear lights aren't in the rain working its an automatic black flag.

I am of the opinion that, this demotion wont cost him the title, if he doesn't win the title it is because he was too inconsistent.
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