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August 21st, 2020, 11:34 AM   #81
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Yes, but Dorna always sides with the cult of personality.
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August 21st, 2020, 07:45 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
So in Brno, Pol runs wide, worries not who may be on the racing line when and crashes into Zarco. Zarco is punished, the rationale is that Pol was ever so slightly in front. Everyone but Freddie Spencer seems to disagree with the punishment.

Argentina 2015, Rossi cuts across Marquez’s line, Marquez crashes. No punishment because Rossi was in front, it’s the rider behinds responsibility because the rider in front could not know where the rider behind is on the track. Even if he did look over his shoulder.

In this incident Zarco is in front and runs wide, telemetry proves he did not brake check Morbidelli. Morbidelli runs right into the back off Zarco, setting of a series of chain reactions that could’ve resulted in a much worse outcome. This time Zarco is punished, the rationale seeming to be that he ran wide after passing and Morbidelli didn’t have anywhere to go and Zarco should have know exactly where he was.

It is obvious to anyone with a brain that Rossi has used his influence within the media to make sure Morbidelli bares no blame and Zarco is punished. Has Rossi effectively employed this strategy before? If he has then maybe it is worth considering.

Has an incident like this ever caused a meeting to decide outcomes and punishments days after the crash?
For me the issue is whether any opportunity was available to Morbidelli to avoid the contact. If a crash was inevitable whatever Morbidelli chose to do then it is on Zarco +/- the track design/an unsafe corner. If he chose to keep racing Zarco in the corner concerned after being passed and was in the process of attempting to immediately re-pass Zarco then his judgement in making such an attempt even later in proceedings is more awry than Zarco's.

At the time of the incident the narrative seemed to be that Zarco brake checked Morbidelli to block him from re-passing, but it has since emerged he didn't brake late/brake check Morbidelli and hence was presumably just getting through the corner in the best way for him. It comes down for me to whether Morbidelli couldn't brake in time regardless as above or just didn't brake in time by his own choice; some have said at a time removed from the incident Zarco couldn't have made the corner regardless, but that wasn't the narrative at the time.

That a current competitor in Valentino can comment on proceedings, pre-judge another rider, post videos etc in advance of a hearing by stewards as a result of which a penalty/sanction could and did ensue would be a tad irregular in most sports. Entirely understandable that he or anyone else would be affected/spooked by such a brush with death, but whoever was at fault riding-wise in the incident the risk to Vinales and Rossi came from the track design, and hence placing all the blame on Zarco rather than the track owners or the organisers of the event for not providing a safe track given Casey Stoner said as far back as 2016 that the corner was unsafe, and that Simon Crafar and Valentino himself have also said this post the incident, is perhaps rather convenient for officialdom/the organisers, with the added benefit in Valentino's case of perhaps advancing the prospects of his protege over Zarco's as has been said.
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Last edited by michaelm; August 22nd, 2020 at 04:16 AM.
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August 21st, 2020, 09:41 PM   #83
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I totally agree Mike, Zarco may or may not have made an overambitious overtake. But the track is certainly more responsible for a near miss than the overtake itself. So does that mean that no rider should attempt a pass there regardless of speed differential between themselves and the bike in front who may be slowing them down? If so then that corner is being ridden in yellow flag conditions and probably shouldn't be on the calendar. Personally I'm not convinced Zarco made a mistake and if he did then Morbidelli must also have made a mistake.

If Morbidelli was on a Ducati, KTM or Honda would the speed differential have been so much that Zarco was able or felt he had to make a move at that turn? If the speed differential between the bikes did indeed have an effect on the incident, which I believe it did, does that mean Yamaha should be punished because on some tracks their lack of acceleration and speed compared to other manufacturers can be potentially dangerous? Of course not but if RD is going to start punishing factors that have contributed to a racing incident then Yamaha could be considered dangerous on certain parts of certain tracks and thus can't be above punishment.

I am not advocating for Yamaha being punished, all I am saying is that I very much doubt that it is a coincidence that the fastest bike on the grid and the slowest bike on the grid were involved in an accident on a potentially dangerous part of a track where speed differential between bike is clearly and can clearly be a factor.
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August 21st, 2020, 11:35 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
I totally agree Mike, Zarco may or may not have made an overambitious overtake. But the track is certainly more responsible for a near miss than the overtake itself. So does that mean that no rider should attempt a pass there regardless of speed differential between themselves and the bike in front who may be slowing them down? If so then that corner is being ridden in yellow flag conditions and probably shouldn't be on the calendar. Personally I'm not convinced Zarco made a mistake and if he did then Morbidelli must also have made a mistake.

If Morbidelli was on a Ducati, KTM or Honda would the speed differential have been so much that Zarco was able or felt he had to make a move at that turn? If the speed differential between the bikes did indeed have an effect on the incident, which I believe it did, does that mean Yamaha should be punished because on some tracks their lack of acceleration and speed compared to other manufacturers can be potentially dangerous? Of course not but if RD is going to start punishing factors that have contributed to a racing incident then Yamaha could be considered dangerous on certain parts of certain tracks and thus can't be above punishment.

I am not advocating for Yamaha being punished, all I am saying is that I very much doubt that it is a coincidence that the fastest bike on the grid and the slowest bike on the grid were involved in an accident on a potentially dangerous part of a track where speed differential between bike is clearly and can clearly be a factor.
Doesn’t mean Zarco isn’t a hot head, but Valentino also has reason to bear a grudge against him, in accepting the factory ride with KTM which pretty definitely was an error of judgement for him of course, Zarco was fairly vocal about what he saw as Valentino’s negative influence at Yamaha and his preference for Jorge’s direction as far as the Yamaha bike was concerned; Yamaha seem to have decided he was correct and backed Vinales and Quartararo and their bike preferences which were perhaps similar to Zarco’s over Valentino.
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August 22nd, 2020, 01:01 AM   #85
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Zarco was questioned, he was asked for instance if there was something he could have done to avoid collision. Morbidelli wasn't asked if he could have avoided it. Quite clear, the hearing was a pre-decided farce. These stewards are a disgrace to the sport.
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August 22nd, 2020, 07:49 AM   #86
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This Rossi individual is making me a worse person. Seeing someone crashing I always feel for them, I know they are hurt physically and morally, I know the pain. Today I saw Rossi crash in Q1 and I felt nothing. Exactly nothing ... like there was no human being down ...
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August 22nd, 2020, 07:58 AM   #87
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Quote:
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This Rossi individual is making me a worse person. Seeing someone crashing I always feel for them, I know they are hurt physically and morally, I know the pain. Today I saw Rossi crash in Q1 and I felt nothing. Exactly nothing ... like there was no human being down ...

We do get accustomed to seeing riders crash at high speeds and walk away unscathed.
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August 22nd, 2020, 08:12 AM   #88
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Yup, once again vr is being allowed to set an agenda.
And he isn’t even Spanish!
And yes, these “court” proceedings are a farce.
What are we coming to, slower riders need to be provided with a “safe space”?
Ha ha.
Only partly joking.
If you stay in front you don’t have to worry about others running into you.
Racing at this level is civilized warfare, one on one combat. Always has been and always will be. That’s why we watch it.
When I say civilized, I mean the part involving the sportsmanship aspect where you don’t intentionally endanger another rider or punt them off the track. Just like boxers aren’t supposed to punch below the belt or chew on each other’s ears.
In this aspect, vr has failed miserably on multiple occasions and his voice on this subject should be discounted, especially at this point in the twilight of his diminishing career when he is no longer a factor In the proceedings. The occasional podium due to the retirement of other contenders notwithstanding.
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August 22nd, 2020, 04:22 PM   #89
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Neil Hodgson analysis of Zarco/Morbidelli crash
I think Hodgson does a good analysis this time.

Last edited by The Burning Barber; August 22nd, 2020 at 04:23 PM. Reason: typo
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August 22nd, 2020, 04:39 PM   #90
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Agreed.

"The throttle works both ways." Cool line and no shit.

But, gotta keep the vr academy folk happy and self satisfied, since they can do no wrong. It's gotta be somebody else's fault.
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