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August 18th, 2020, 02:22 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I am hardly Rossi‘S biggest fan, but I think he is entitled to a gripe in this instance, particularly since his gripe correctly imo partly concerned the intrinsic danger of the corner, and he did also show balls of adamantium/titanium/whatever to go back out and ride a competitive race after the re-start. I struggle to think of an incident precipitated by him as potentially dangerous as this one in his career, which doesn’t apply to riders I favour far more than him including MM and even Stoner, the latter learning from the pile up due to his riding error in 2006 however. I am leaning to the view it was too dangerous to make the pass Zarco made at that point on the track, definitely so if Morbidelli had no bail out option. If he was trying an immediate re-pass at an even later point then Morbidelli also made a contributory error of judgement however imo, I am not sure Zarco was in a position to take any alternative line.

In general though Rossi, and MM, seem to be of the view that rules are for other people, and have taken advantage of the propensity of other more principled riders not to wish to be involved in collisions. Rossi complains about hard moves by others which MM basically doesn’t though. I would love to have seen Rossi attempt some of his admittedly rare more controversial moves on the likes of Mick Doohan rather than Gibernau or Stoner.
Good points. Although I disagree that MM and Rossi do not expect their aggressive tactics to be used on them. Both MM and VR never complain when another rider is aggressive with them and a crash doesn't result. This would be hypocritical. However, both will vigorously complain if he feels that he has been taken out through aggressive riding. All riders do.

Not many of the other riders are capable of what they do and if they try it would often lead to crashes. It may seem that they ride with different rules but IMO, they add another layer to racing skill, if you will.
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August 18th, 2020, 02:30 AM   #62
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VR is a 7 time champ with a long career and experience. MV isn't. One has a driver academy with one of his graduates involved in a huge shunt that miraculously left no one seriously injured or dead. He is currently instructing/advising upcoming riders. This makes him very different from MV. He will feel inclined to comment on a lot of issues and the press will understandably approach him for his opinion as they now do with Dovi. I am not at all surprised Rossi had something to say about it and would have been disappointed actually, if he didn't. Some riders, and dare I say, most, will likely choose to be neutral about it knowing the potential consequence of not doing so. IOW's, they would rather not get publicly involved since it often then becomes political. Rossi will not, since he's in a position not to be and has experience with dealing with the consequence of taking an unpopular position. We have read Morbidelli's take on what happened.

VR repeatedly says he has no problem with aggressive riding and not surprisingly so since he himself is well known for his aggressive tactics. However, he speaks of a line, that if crossed, will lead to serious danger to other riders. So I understand him fully in that there should be respect for the safety and lives of the other riders while this doesn't negate aggression completely.

You see exactly what Rossi refers to when JLo engages Rossi and especially MM on track. JLo becomes distinctly more aggressive in his riding since if he doesn't, he will not win. However, like VR and MM, he's aware of where the line is and where his aggression inappropriately placed can lead to shunts with serious consequences. Aggression that is not only tempered by awareness but also skill. As we've seen over the years and are witnessing now, there is the occasional rider who's bravery isn't tamed by this awareness and his skill.
Rossi was running his academy and was a seasoned veteran when he intentionally took actions to punt Marquez off the track. Rossi has never had an unpopular opinion and he knows that, he uses his huge media influence to ostracise and alienate anyone who dare upsets him and makes it a popular opinion. Like I said this all leads back to Rossi being upset with Zarco diving up the inside of him in COTA. Rossi only doesn’t like that line crossed when it’s done to him or by one of his protégés. He didn’t care about Stoners safety, or Gibernaus etc, or even Nakagamis last year.

Like his mentor Morbidelli has no reason to say that he also went ride in an attempt to take the inside line for the next corner. I’m not saying that’s what happened but if he did, he’s been well taught to never admit to anything. Zarco was unfairly punished in Brno and there is a witch-hunt lead by Rossi.
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August 18th, 2020, 02:32 AM   #63
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VR never complain when another rider is aggressive with them and a crash doesn't result.
Rossi has complained plenty of times about aggressive moves being used against him. One time he was so upset that someone dared race him as hard as they were racing him he intentionally ran the guy off track causing him to crash.
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August 18th, 2020, 03:42 AM   #64
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https://www.mcnews.com.au/mick-dooha...XFoh-99SglgOWA

Good read from Doohan. He does seem to echo a bit of Misfits comments about Valentino. Though again my issue is the hypocrisy of it.

He talks about Dovi's title chances, Yamahas bike and also Marc and the Honda. Interesting compares him to Wayne Gardiner, says they both liked to go quick and that's what he is worried about which does sound very close to Marquez reportedly giving the same feedback as others on the bike but refusing to compromise ease of riding for speed.

I love it when Mick talks.

edit: also talks about Jack as well.
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August 18th, 2020, 04:34 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
https://www.mcnews.com.au/mick-dooha...XFoh-99SglgOWA

Good read from Doohan. He does seem to echo a bit of Misfits comments about Valentino. Though again my issue is the hypocrisy of it.

He talks about Dovi's title chances, Yamahas bike and also Marc and the Honda. Interesting compares him to Wayne Gardiner, says they both liked to go quick and that's what he is worried about which does sound very close to Marquez reportedly giving the same feedback as others on the bike but refusing to compromise ease of riding for speed.

I love it when Mick talks.

edit: also talks about Jack as well.
Good read, thanks.

No fussiness about Mick, as always.
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August 18th, 2020, 05:49 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I am hardly Rossi‘s biggest fan, but I think he is entitled to a gripe in this instance, particularly since his gripe correctly imo partly concerned the intrinsic danger of the corner, and he did also show balls of adamantium/titanium/whatever to go back out and ride a competitive race after the re-start. I struggle to think of an incident precipitated by him as potentially dangerous as this one in his career, which doesn’t apply to riders I favour far more than him including MM and even Stoner, the latter learning from the pile up due to his riding error in 2006 however. I am leaning to the view it was too dangerous to make the pass Zarco made at that point on the track, definitely so if Morbidelli had no bail out option. If he was trying an immediate re-pass at an even later point then Morbidelli also made a contributory error of judgement however imo, I am not sure Zarco was in a position to take any alternative line.

In general though Rossi, and MM, seem to be of the view that rules are for other people, and have taken advantage of the propensity of other more principled riders not to wish to be involved in collisions. Rossi complains about hard moves by others which MM basically doesn’t though. I would love to have seen Rossi attempt some of his admittedly rare more controversial moves on the likes of Mick Doohan rather than Gibernau or Stoner.
That in a nutshell, is for so many people, the thing so off-putting about Rossi, his sense of entitlement. Even if that entitlement is to certain fans an earned privilege, I think he's abused it. As to the small number of people injured by Rossi's questionable ethics as regards his hard passes, who's to say whether that's a result of the way he makes those passes or a result of the way those being passed used their racecraft to avoid more serious consequences? A good example of that would be Stoner's quick reactions to the douchebag move Rossi pulled in the Corkscrew. That Stoner wasn't injured was not a reflection of Rossi's talent. The way Rossi has goes through life as if the rules don't apply to him and his quickness to bitch and moan when other riders give as well as they get, are the hallmarks of the archetypal bully; always the first to whine (or whinge as Brits have it) when their own tactics are used against them.

Last edited by Keshav; August 19th, 2020 at 04:58 AM.
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August 18th, 2020, 02:16 PM   #67
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That in a nutshell, is for so many people, the thing so off-putting about Rossi, his sense of entitlement. Even if that entitlement is to certain fans an earned privilege, I think he's abused it. As to the small number of people injured by Rossi's questionable ethics as regards his hard passes, who's to say whether that's a result of the way he makes those passes or a result of the way those being passed used their racecraft to avoid more serious consequences? A good example of that would be Stoner's quick reactions to the douchebag move Rossi pulled in the Corkscrew. That Stoner wasn't injured was not a reflection on Rossi's talent. The way Rossi has goes through life as if the rules don't apply to him and his quickness to bitch and moan when other riders give as well as they get, are the hallmarks of the archetypal bully; always the first to whine (or whinge as Brits have it) when their own tactics are used against them.
I think all of that is true in general, and was particularly relevant in 2015 when he seemed to feel winning the title was his due, but I think any rider, 100 wins or none, 9 titles or none, aged 21 or 41 would have a similar visceral reaction to a bike flying by their head.

Otherwise the issue for me is whether he is correct about Morbidelli being completely the victim in the incident. I have formed the view that Zarco's pass was not on at that point in the track, and some are saying post race he wouldn't have made the corner anyway; this is rather at odds with alternative claims that he deliberately blocked Morbidelli's line with talk at the time that he should have left room for Morbidelli to re-pass him. I don't see how a re-pass was on either if Morbidelli was in fact trying same. I see in the recently posted Mick Doohan piece that Zarco and Morbdelli are fronting some sort of enquiry.

Last edited by michaelm; August 19th, 2020 at 04:18 AM.
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August 19th, 2020, 03:08 AM   #68
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I think all of that is true in general, and was particularly relevant in 2015 when he seemed to feel winning the title was his due, but I think any rider, a 100 wins or none, 9 titles or none, aged 21 or 41 would have a similar pretty much visceral reaction to a bike flying by their head.

Otherwise the issue for me is whether he is correct about Morbidelli being completely the victim in the incident. I have formed the view that Zarco's pass was not on at that point in the track, and some are saying post race he wouldn't have made the corner anyway; this is rather at odds with alternative claims that he deliberately blocked Morbidelli's line with talk at the time that he should have left room for Morbidelli to re-pass him. I don't see how a re-pass was on either if Morbidelli was in fact trying same. I see in the recently posted Mick Doohan piece that Zarco and Morbdelli are fronting some sort of enquiry.
They're supposed to meet with the FIM stewards on Thursday to discuss the incident.
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August 19th, 2020, 08:51 PM   #69
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https://www.ilmessaggero.it/sport/mo...a-5407713.html

My italian is non existent but I saw a translation on facebook but then lost the post. So I'm not sure if this is the correct article or the correct quotes but Agostini looks to have come out in support of Zarco in Austria. Like Doohan, I think Ago is quite insightful and gives quite a balanced view and/or he doesn't have bias. If it'snot the right article then maybe a poster who speaks italian could dig up the right one if it exists.

There's former racers and current races who opinions can and often times should be taken with a grain of salt but I believe when Ago and Doohan talk, you should listen and if you disagree there's a good chance you're wrong.
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August 19th, 2020, 11:46 PM   #70
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Last edited by misfit; August 19th, 2020 at 11:49 PM.
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