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August 10th, 2020, 06:00 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
Sure don't disagree Jorge is the better rider and it would appear could develop a bike to suit his style but could also modify his strengths as he did on the duke.

Those passes by Dovi were still something to behold and required nerve, skill, planning and execution.
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Sure, not many riders in history could make such passes on MM and get them to stick imo.

Even I as a JL fan find PI 2017 hard to defend although I would still like to think JL would have ceded position at the end of the race if it kept Dovi in the title race. It was perhaps somewhat reflective of the antipathy between the riders, but the discussion as to who was more responsible for the strength of the bike looks fairly firmly decided in JL’s favour now, and the ousting of JL although backing Dovi gave every appearance of being the way to go at the time (except for it not being being Gigi's wish) damaged both Ducati and even Dovi’s prospects imo, as he has gone back to where he was at Ducati pre JL and Gigi.
I don't doubt that JL was behind changes that were beneficial to him. I would tho, point out, that the post-Rossi Ducati was really crap when Dovi signed on. A series of small and major improvements occurred during those years since Dovi signed on and when Lorenzo came and got on what was a Ducati that was vastly superior. That is a shit-load of time developing and being a new-parts mule. By the time Lorenzo came along other riders were already managing to have good results on the Ducati. People are acting like he turned a turd into a diamond. From where I stand, it's a case of his standing on the shoulders of giants. Dovi and Ducati handed Lorenzo a great "sports car", and Lorenzo moved the seat forward a few clicks and made a more compact ashtray, and everybody proclaims him as a development genius. Yet no-one gives Dovi credit for all the hard work he did during the not-so-glamorous Ducati years.
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Last edited by Keshav; August 10th, 2020 at 07:11 AM.
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August 10th, 2020, 06:04 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Barbedwirebikerr View Post
Pit Beirer, KTM Motorsports Director: “For KTM this is an unbelievable day. It’s historic for our company and for the whole team but of course for Brad Binder; who has believed in us and our project for many years. Today is payback for so much hard work. We knew we had a better bike for this year and this did not happen by accident: it came from everything we learned during the last years. With Dani Pedrosa, Mika Kallio and the test team we worked and developed for over a full year to have this bike now. At the end of the day you need a fantastic rider to put the bike on the top step and Brad did it today, and in the same style as he won in Moto3 and Moto2 races for us. It´s an incredible feeling and we will now build on this result. On the other hand, I want to thank Pol Espargaro because also he - together with his crew – brought every piece of the puzzle together to bring this project to the top. Today is the result of a fantastic team effort: at home in Munderfing and Mattighofen, through the test team and a great crew on track.”
Mate, I'm not saying Pedrosa wasn't part of the team. I'm saying there's been no indication from KTM that he was the guiding light, the spark of hope: One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. etc etc.
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August 10th, 2020, 04:20 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I don't doubt that JL was behind changes that were beneficial to him. I would tho, point out, that the post-Rossi Ducati was really crap when Dovi signed on. A series of small and major improvements occurred during those years since Dovi signed on and when Lorenzo came and got on what was a Ducati that was vastly superior. That is a shit-load of time developing and being a new-parts mule. By the time Lorenzo came along other riders were already managing to have good results on the Ducati. People are acting like he turned a turd into a diamond. From where I stand, it's a case of his standing on the shoulders of giants. Dovi and Ducati handed Lorenzo a great "sports car", and Lorenzo moved the seat forward a few clicks and made a more compact ashtray, and everybody proclaims him as a development genius. Yet no-one gives Dovi credit for all the hard work he did during the not-so-glamorous Ducati years.
The Ducati prior to Rossi wasn't the best for anyone bar Stoner either.
We don't have complete knowledge of what Lorenzo changed on the bike.
I would expect it is slightly more involved than what you are suggesting there
Either way he has 5 world titles under his belt and there is plenty of positive feedback from multiple sources on how he contributed to development of the bike he won 3 premiere titles on.
Gigi you would expect has some insight also.
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August 10th, 2020, 04:58 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
The Ducati prior to Rossi wasn't the best for anyone bar Stoner either.
We don't have complete knowledge of what Lorenzo changed on the bike.
I would expect it is slightly more involved than what you are suggesting there
Either way he has 5 world titles under his belt and there is plenty of positive feedback from multiple sources on how he contributed to development of the bike he won 3 premiere titles on.
Gigi you would expect has some insight also.
Well - I was speaking prosaically. ie: compared to many more years put in by Dovi.
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August 10th, 2020, 07:47 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I don't doubt that JL was behind changes that were beneficial to him. I would tho, point out, that the post-Rossi Ducati was really crap when Dovi signed on. A series of small and major improvements occurred during those years since Dovi signed on and when Lorenzo came and got on what was a Ducati that was vastly superior. That is a shit-load of time developing and being a new-parts mule. By the time Lorenzo came along other riders were already managing to have good results on the Ducati. People are acting like he turned a turd into a diamond. From where I stand, it's a case of his standing on the shoulders of giants. Dovi and Ducati handed Lorenzo a great "sports car", and Lorenzo moved the seat forward a few clicks and made a more compact ashtray, and everybody proclaims him as a development genius. Yet no-one gives Dovi credit for all the hard work he did during the not-so-glamorous Ducati years.
Who knows, but as has been said Gigi at least seemed to think Jorge was fairly crucial, along with Jorge himself of course. Whoever turned it from a turd to a diamond, the 2020 bike with which Jorge presumably was not involved seems to have turned back into a turd just at present, while the 2019 bike remains not so much in Zarco's hands last weekend. Could be other factors of course, the new Michelins not suiting Dovi or Jack, if Bagnaia was on a 2020 bike in the second race of the season.

If Dovi isn't re-signed it will continue a long line of Ducati falling out with with their best achievers, Presiozi and Stoner among them, as well as with the likes of Jorge, Melandri etc. It is hard to argue they have ever demonstrated much in the way of man management skills, and ironic that Jorge came good just after the idiot in senior management decided he was a waste of space and salary despite Gig's protestations.

One interesting thing is that KTM have moved up despite employing the steel trellis frame chassis also traditional for them, having I believe said in the past there was no need for Ducati to move away from theirs.
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August 10th, 2020, 11:39 PM   #36
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Stupid decision by Race Direction. Pol brought that on himself with the mistake he made a few corners before.
Typical Dorna nepotism bullshit.
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August 11th, 2020, 03:43 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Blackie Black View Post
Typical Dorna nepotism bullshit.
Hahaha... what r u smoking?
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August 11th, 2020, 06:18 AM   #38
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Simon was on Twitter last night, he said that now he's seen the overhead helicopter view (he didn't in pit lane during the race) that he was incorrect and Zarco did nothing wrong.

I really do like Mr Crafar, sure he was a cluster fuck when he first started doing the pitlane stuff, but he's 100% awesome now!

Macca
I wonder sometimes whether RD make decisions on the basis of the commentary.
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August 11th, 2020, 02:24 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Mate, I'm not saying Pedrosa wasn't part of the team. I'm saying there's been no indication from KTM that he was the guiding light, the spark of hope: One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. etc etc.
Interview with Pit Beirer on GPOne

"How much did Pedrosa's development affect, what was the major step it took?"

"The biggest criticism of our bike was that only Pol could ride it. We knew it but you can't change such a situation in one night, two seconds are easily removed but when the last second comes the difficult part begins.

We wanted to make it rideable by everyone. the riders. I was not dissatisfied in 2019, Miguel and Pol were both injured.
We brought new parts to the track every week, then the time came when you have to develop the bike for the following year.

With Dani and Mika we worked a lot, but Dani gave the project a different direction. To our frame, the suspension and also the engine. Of course, we took other technicians but never copied. The bike is completely different from the previous three years ".
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August 12th, 2020, 05:17 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Interview with Pit Beirer on GPOne

"How much did Pedrosa's development affect, what was the major step it took?"

"The biggest criticism of our bike was that only Pol could ride it. We knew it but you can't change such a situation in one night, two seconds are easily removed but when the last second comes the difficult part begins.

We wanted to make it rideable by everyone. the riders. I was not dissatisfied in 2019, Miguel and Pol were both injured.
We brought new parts to the track every week, then the time came when you have to develop the bike for the following year.

With Dani and Mika we worked a lot, but Dani gave the project a different direction. To our frame, the suspension and also the engine. Of course, we took other technicians but never copied. The bike is completely different from the previous three years ".
HRC must be kicking themselves for not hiring Dani as their development rider or not listening more to him once MM arrived....

Again Pol has to be having second thoughts....

KTM going forward should keep Pol happy but not letting him in to the further updates to their bike since he is gonig to the number 1 rival...
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