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March 25th, 2020, 03:49 AM   #1
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What makes the Talent of a rider?

Title says it all.

What makes the talent?

I say the fantastic 4 (Dani, Marc, Jorge & Casey) all had more natural talent than Rossi and some say the results say otherwise.

I think the results don't really explain the full story.

Might be a dumb thread but we don't really have much to talk about these days.

Any thoughts please?
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March 30th, 2020, 05:23 AM   #2
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Marc is the complete package. Casey had a talent near to comparable but not the mind set. Jorge and Dani a tiny bit behind Casey talent wise but Jorge probably had a slight edge on Casey psychologically. Dani the weakest mentally but also physically. Getting smashed to bits every time you crash makes one risk averse.

Rossi had the mental side covered but Marc and Casey are/were superior riders. Also, when Rossi was stripped of his dominance he fell apart. Mind games only work when you have the pace to win.
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March 30th, 2020, 08:59 AM   #3
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I personally argue that results over a long career do count for a lot.

I have no doubt that without serious injury, Stoner would have won more championships. He was a fantastic rider while in MotoGP. You can't excuse, luck and circumstance your way into multiple championships without a lot of ability and talent. Neither can you have a lot of talent and application, and yet, excuse your way out of multiple championships despite multiple opportunities.

Like in any sport, competitors are getting better and better. Each rider is a product of his era, including the aliens of each era. Drop an alien from a previous era into a later or the current era, without the build-up, and he will be nowhere since the ingredients to success, i.e., the degree of training, attention to details and mental application are different and arguably tougher. More and more, riders/drivers are superspecialised in their respective category of racing since they have to give all their attention and energy to that series to maintain competitiveness.

Rossi gave some interesting insight into what it is like to ride competitively in MotoGP for so many years. He finds it a lot more challenging now, not simply because of his age and the challenges that go with it, but also, how much more is required of him in terms of race preparation, bike setup etc. to be competitive. All the riders have to do this. It's not that he alone has to be doing it to keep up with the bigger talents around him. What makes it even more challenging for him is to keep the motivation with all of this and to adapt to the tyres etc as they evolve, old habits dying hard when they no longer bring the results.

I do believe Rossi is getting more than his fair share of negative commentary. Yes, his attitude has sucked, especially as his competitiveness has declined. However, his success does say a lot

Dani is a great rider, no doubt. I agree that his size has likely been a disadvantage in MotoGP. However, each rider is what he is, i.e., complete and it's probably not a good thing to cherry pick a particular attribute and give it all the credit for successes or failures. We haven't considered the possible advantages to his size, such as fuel consumption, increased acceleration etc that goes with less weight.

At the end of the day, we look at results. That's why we use them and that's why we declare a champion over a season and not after a single race. This is why we declare a great over a career or after repeated demonstrations of success in different conditions, bikes, competitors etc.
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Last edited by misfit; March 30th, 2020 at 09:02 AM.
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March 30th, 2020, 12:10 PM   #4
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Talent is the ability of an athlete to determine which set of skills are going to be the most important to allow that athlete to dominate in their era and area of endeavor. Then comes the work to execute improvement in all those areas.

I’ve always found it fascinating to speculate about whether certain elite riders or drivers would have been able to impose the same dominance if dropped into another era of the same sport. For example, would a Lawson or a Nuvolari have been able to compete equally as fiercely in a different time period? Would they have made the analysis as to what was needed at the moment and worked on that? Or was their success due partly to some innate ability that hey had at the time they were racing that allowed them to acquire an edge more “easily”? Take that advantage away and would they still be able to do it?

For example, Kenny Roberts used his flat tracking expertise to adapt to GP racing and win 3 world titles. Would he have been able to win three titles in another era where that might not have given him the same advantage?
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March 30th, 2020, 07:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit View Post
I personally argue that results over a long career do count for a lot.

I have no doubt that without serious injury, Stoner would have won more championships. He was a fantastic rider while in MotoGP. You can't excuse, luck and circumstance your way into multiple championships without a lot of ability and talent. Neither can you have a lot of talent and application, and yet, excuse your way out of multiple championships despite multiple opportunities.

Like in any sport, competitors are getting better and better. Each rider is a product of his era, including the aliens of each era. Drop an alien from a previous era into a later or the current era, without the build-up, and he will be nowhere since the ingredients to success, i.e., the degree of training, attention to details and mental application are different and arguably tougher. More and more, riders/drivers are superspecialised in their respective category of racing since they have to give all their attention and energy to that series to maintain competitiveness.

Rossi gave some interesting insight into what it is like to ride competitively in MotoGP for so many years. He finds it a lot more challenging now, not simply because of his age and the challenges that go with it, but also, how much more is required of him in terms of race preparation, bike setup etc. to be competitive. All the riders have to do this. It's not that he alone has to be doing it to keep up with the bigger talents around him. What makes it even more challenging for him is to keep the motivation with all of this and to adapt to the tyres etc as they evolve, old habits dying hard when they no longer bring the results.

I do believe Rossi is getting more than his fair share of negative commentary. Yes, his attitude has sucked, especially as his competitiveness has declined. However, his success does say a lot

Dani is a great rider, no doubt. I agree that his size has likely been a disadvantage in MotoGP. However, each rider is what he is, i.e., complete and it's probably not a good thing to cherry pick a particular attribute and give it all the credit for successes or failures. We haven't considered the possible advantages to his size, such as fuel consumption, increased acceleration etc that goes with less weight.

At the end of the day, we look at results. That's why we use them and that's why we declare a champion over a season and not after a single race. This is why we declare a great over a career or after repeated demonstrations of success in different conditions, bikes, competitors etc.
I have not been impressed by Rossi's attitude for the last decade or so, and have re-evaluated his character somewhat; his "mind games"when he was unchallenged for his very long peak imo seem closer to bullying in retrospect, and his propensity for off-track manipulation has been much more nakedly revealed. As I have said previously if he had retired after 2009 which I still believe he was considering at the time MM would at best(again imo) be considered to be a challenger to Rossi's pre-eminent position in the sport. That Rossi could still be competitive till his late 30s and come very close to winning a title as recently as 2015, against 2 others riders who are likely top 10 all time, if looked at objectively is probably evidence in favour of his greatness rather than detracting from it, but unfortunately for him his career has overlapped with that of a rider at least comparable imo to him at his absolute peak, and that rider has pretty much proved Rossi's fabled sangfroid to actually be a myth and proven invulnerable to his mind games, being emboldened by them rather than quailing.
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