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February 27th, 2020, 02:41 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Why you insist on thinking that a better handling bike would hobble Marquez is unfathomable.

Historically - the thing that most often sets the "aliens" apart from the pack, is their ability to compensate for the short-comings of the engineering people. That's why they were so anxious to hire Stoner and then have the first year rookie rule changed to get Marquez on a full factory bike ASAP.

In light of how many front end crashes Marquez has suffered with, to say nothing of the resulting injuries, it's absurd to posit that the bike is tailored to Marquez's specs. It should be obvious that he'd prefer a bike that doesn't constantly lose the front end, with back end shaking around like a wild bronco; especially when you compare the jiggling Honda to much more stable Ducati which - Makes Just As Much Power.

To make a laughable statement that Honda doesn't care about image and prestige is to admit - you know less than zero about Japanese business culture.

And then - you say there's no incentive to make a better bike that more riders can more successfully compete on. Really? Seriously? Better results as I said, mean more, higher paying sponsorship money - which translates to millions of dollars. Sounds like incentive to me.

And lastly, there's the constructor's championship, which is hugely important to manufacturers. Honda doesn't care about Marquez vs Quattararo. They care about beating Yamaha and upstart Ducati.
Have to disagree with you on that. A better handling bike might have less ultimate pace and require a change in some of the characteristics which make MM win championships easily. Same as the 2007 Ducati, which was engineered to be as fast as possible with probably only the then nascent electronics making it rideable at all, and handled badly/wouldn't turn. Their 1 year placeholding rider from the 250 class just happened to be able to ride the thing, with his own method of getting it through the corners despite the bike refusing to turn. If you could get it through the corners by Stoner's method, which Burgess and Rossi opined basically involved going to the edge of crashing it in every corner, then the straight line speed and acceleration advantage form the engine made it unbeatable by anyone on a Yamaha no matter how well they rode. I think a similar dynamic applies with MM at HRC now, with the spec ECU no longer allowing the engineers to tame the bike, but MM's wrist and the software between his ears replaces this sufficiently that HRC feel no need to re-design the engine. I think it does have a balance shaft now though which goes against Honda engineering tradition.

Last edited by michaelm; February 28th, 2020 at 02:49 AM.
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February 27th, 2020, 04:10 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Have to disagree with you on that. A better handling bike might have less ultimate pace and require a change in some of the characteristics which make MM win championships easily. Same as the 2007 Ducati, which was engineered to be fast as possible with the then nascent electronics probably the only thing making it rideable at all and handled badly/wouldn't turn, but their 1 year placeholding rider from the 250 class just happened to be able to ride the thing, with his own method of getting it through the corners despite the bike refusing to turn. If you could get it through the corners by Stoner's method, which Burgess and Rossi opined basically involved going to the edge of crashing it in every corner, then the straight line speed and acceleration advantage form the engine made it unbeatable by anyone on a Yamaha no matter how well they rode. I think a similar dynamic applies with MM at HRC now, with the spec ECU no longer allowing the engineers to tame the bike, but MM's wrist and the software between his ears replaces that sufficiently that HRC feel no need to re-design the engine. I think it does have a balance shaft now though which goes against Honda engineering tradition.
I reckon a better handling Honda would benefit MM over the long haul because he wouldn't need to spend so much energy saving the front end, allowing him to win, perhaps by not as big a margin and perhaps not 4 races from the end of the season - but with fewer injuries. We've all seen how the M1 could be a world beater despite a lower top speed disadvantage. We've seen how a rider much older than Marquez (Dovi) could repeatedly take him to task on the much more stable Ducati, despite the fact that the Ducati doesn't turn as well.

There are reliable reports that Ducati has managed to figure out a way for the riders to engage the hole-shot device - mid-race -without the use of electronics (which would make it illegal) - which if true (and I believe it is) would give considerable advantage to the Ducati riders. If Honda didn't have Marquez there to smooth over the front end issues, they would be right to be nervous this year. If that is, Ducati had better riders. A Doohan or a Stoner or a Marquez comes along ever so many years and the next one is about due. In the meantime, Honda is totally invested in Marc - and stuck with his little brother.
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February 27th, 2020, 05:48 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Again - you're cherry picking, refusing to address simple questions that undermine everything you claim to believe. 6 Seasons in and the bike that you allege to be tailor made for MM and he was still crashing twice as much as his closest competitors.

Reduced his crash rate. LOL - That's like an inspector praising a team of firemen because after having the firehouse burn down six years in a row, there was still 8% of the firehouse still unburned.
I am cherry picking?
What simple question am I refusing to address?
He won 6 of 7 titles on that machine. He achieved the record points haul on the machine last season.
What part of Honda creating a machine for Marquez to compete on is not working?

Yeah he crashes, how often in races and how many races has he missed due to injury?
How many others can slide the front of the machine like he does and hold it up on his elbow?


“The holy grail of motorcycle racing has always been to come up with a device that can save front-end slides, and now Honda have one; he’s called Marc Márquez.”

It’s as simple as that. Well, pretty much. The one thing Márquez can do that no one else can do is consistently override the motorcycle, specifically the front tyre’s traction limit.

It’s this unique skill that gives him his biggest advantage over his rivals. This is confirmed by top MotoGP tyre and suspension technicians who watch all the riders out on track and examine all their data in the pits.

“For me, there is no one like Marc in the way he controls the front,” says Michelin MotoGP chief Piero Taramasso.

“Marc’s riding style is quite unique – no one else can ride a front slide for so long,” adds Öhlins race engineer Thomas Alatalo. “He has some kind of unreal feeling for how hard he can be on the brakes into the corner and in the trail-braking area, so he makes up most of his time in the final part of corner entry.”

Remember that Taramasso and Alatalo aren’t Márquez’s crew. They work with all the riders, so saying stuff like this will make them more enemies than friends in pit lane. In other words, they mean what they say.


https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...s-m-rquez-king

Honda have a bloke that can do what others can't and they create a bike for him to do that on.
It is working.
When it aint they will address what the next rider(s) need.
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February 27th, 2020, 06:30 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I reckon a better handling Honda would benefit MM over the long haul because he wouldn't need to spend so much energy saving the front end, allowing him to win, perhaps by not as big a margin and perhaps not 4 races from the end of the season - but with fewer injuries. We've all seen how the M1 could be a world beater despite a lower top speed disadvantage. We've seen how a rider much older than Marquez (Dovi) could repeatedly take him to task on the much more stable Ducati, despite the fact that the Ducati doesn't turn as well.

There are reliable reports that Ducati has managed to figure out a way for the riders to engage the hole-shot device - mid-race -without the use of electronics (which would make it illegal) - which if true (and I believe it is) would give considerable advantage to the Ducati riders. If Honda didn't have Marquez there to smooth over the front end issues, they would be right to be nervous this year. If that is, Ducati had better riders. A Doohan or a Stoner or a Marquez comes along ever so many years and the next one is about due. In the meantime, Honda is totally invested in Marc - and stuck with his little brother.
I agree about Marquez. Sans him they probably have to re-design their engine now they have to rely on the control ECU, a major undertaking which would take time, and money significant even for Honda; whatever they are paying MM is probably cheaper than doing that, and I doubt they want to spend as much time time as Ducati did being uncompetitive. As I recall Ducati even tried to claim the development concessions available with new entrant status; can’t see Honda doing that, and with MM on board they don’t need to do so.

Last edited by michaelm; February 27th, 2020 at 06:42 PM.
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February 27th, 2020, 06:33 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
It's not easy to make a bike more than one rider can win on when your #1 rider has such a radical riding style. By maximizing Marc's talent, that allows them to have a bike that's much stronger than the competition in certain areas. If they make a better all-around bike, it's likely Marc would win less because the RCV's limits would be closer (or less than) those of the M1 and Ducati. That could actually cause Marc to crash more often as he would be desperate to take even bigger risks.

You keep talking about prestige and brand visibility, that already have that. Even in WSBK for the past few years HRC hasn't give a damn about making any sort of serious effort. What about their precious image and prestige?? They don't care! It's the Marquez show for them until something changes and forces them to go a different direction.

Bottomline is HRC doesn't have any incentive to change what's currently working for them. Especially now that Marc just committed to stay with them.
This is false logic based on a faulty premises. You are proposing that Honda made the bike to suit Marquez's "radical" style. But in point of fact, Marquez had one of his most dominant seasons in his rookie year on a bike engineered to suit Pedrosa. Marquez's "radical" style was already established well before his first season in the premiere class. As the Ducatis got better and better, HRC engineers grasped at solutions that made the bike faster but less stabile. Only after six seasons did they begin to show any signs of inspiration when it came to the chassis. It's a lot easier using math science to make more power on computer simulation. Making a better handling chassis is much more an intuitive art. Marquez's riding style became more dramatic over time because he was coping with Honda's tendency to focus on power over handling.

HRC wasn't consciously making the bike less stabile in the front end to accommodate MM's riding style. They were making it faster irregardless of the decreased front end feel to keep pace with the Ducatis that had more useable power in part because the Desmo made great horsepower, but more importantly, because it was manageable horsepower as a result of years of experience with versions of the Marelli Magneti electronics long before Honda were forced to do so.

Last edited by Little Walter; February 27th, 2020 at 06:39 PM.
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February 27th, 2020, 07:00 PM   #46
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This is false logic based on a faulty premises. You are proposing that Honda made the bike to suit Marquez's "radical" style. But in point of fact, Marquez had one of his most dominant seasons in his rookie year on a bike engineered to suit Pedrosa. Marquez's "radical" style was already established well before his first season in the premiere class. As the Ducatis got better and better, HRC engineers grasped at solutions that made the bike faster but less stabile. Only after six seasons did they begin to show any signs of inspiration when it came to the chassis. It's a lot easier using math science to make more power on computer simulation. Making a better handling chassis is much more an intuitive art. Marquez's riding style became more dramatic over time because he was coping with Honda's tendency to focus on power over handling.

HRC wasn't consciously making the bike less stabile in the front end to accommodate MM's riding style. They were making it faster irregardless of the decreased front end feel to keep pace with the Ducatis that had more useable power in part because the Desmo made great horsepower, but more importantly, because it was manageable horsepower as a result of years of experience with versions of the Marelli Magneti electronics long before Honda were forced to do so.
I have always thought Ducati had an intrinsic engine advantage in a fuel economy formula with their mechanical Desmo valve gear instead of the pneumatic valve gear the others employ.

Last edited by michaelm; February 27th, 2020 at 07:02 PM.
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February 28th, 2020, 05:00 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Little Walter View Post
This is false logic based on a faulty premises. You are proposing that Honda made the bike to suit Marquez's "radical" style. But in point of fact, Marquez had one of his most dominant seasons in his rookie year on a bike engineered to suit Pedrosa. Marquez's "radical" style was already established well before his first season in the premiere class. As the Ducatis got better and better, HRC engineers grasped at solutions that made the bike faster but less stabile. Only after six seasons did they begin to show any signs of inspiration when it came to the chassis. It's a lot easier using math science to make more power on computer simulation. Making a better handling chassis is much more an intuitive art. Marquez's riding style became more dramatic over time because he was coping with Honda's tendency to focus on power over handling.

HRC wasn't consciously making the bike less stabile in the front end to accommodate MM's riding style. They were making it faster irregardless of the decreased front end feel to keep pace with the Ducatis that had more useable power in part because the Desmo made great horsepower, but more importantly, because it was manageable horsepower as a result of years of experience with versions of the Marelli Magneti electronics long before Honda were forced to do so.
Yes - I recall in pre-Gigi days when Ducati kept creating those techno-wonder carbon swing arms for Stoner and it seemed every iteration was worse than the previous one. They doubtless used computers to "draw them" (I don't know the terminolgy of the current cad cam techo-babble) but they were pieces of art, beautiful to look at, even if they failed to improve handling. I've been fortunate enough to get on pit lane, able to look at the Ducatis up close and you can clearly see how home-made some of their parts look compared to that of Hondas.
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February 29th, 2020, 10:31 AM   #48
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February 29th, 2020, 10:32 AM   #49
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February 29th, 2020, 11:51 AM   #50
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Why are you posting WSBK stuff in the MotoGp thread???
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