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February 27th, 2020, 08:46 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Answer me this: If it's that simple for Honda to build a rider friendly bike, why the fuck don't they do it?

Japanese business people are famous for their pragmatism. How then to explain the way if it's no big deal to make a rider friendly bike, are they are putting all their eggs in one basket?

Also - if it were so simple to build rider friendly bike, which would mean more Hondas on the podium, therefore more prestige and greater attraction for sponsorship money - why do they lack the will to do so?
Why would they make a rider friendly bike when they're winning championships by only focusing on the talents of Marquez?

Look at it like this, lets say Marquez and Lorenzo were teammates at Yamaha. Imagine Yamaha designed the M1 for Lorenzo's riding style, but the bike sucks under hard braking on corner entry. Marquez is suffering because he can't brake the bike the way he needs to, but Lorenzo is kicking ass in the championship. Yamaha could compromise and change the M1 to accommodate Marc's need for better braking stability, but lets say that change then hurts Lorenzo's corner entry. So instead of compromise they continue to develop the bike to maximize Lorenzo's talent for high corner speed, high lean-angle, smooth style and Lorenzo keeps winning championships.

Now obviously Yamaha doesn't make the bike for just 1 rider, but HRC has no problems doing that if they believe maximizing the talent of 1 rider is what will win them championships. The lack of other Honda riders on the podium doesn't seem to bother them one bit, they celebrate like there's no tomorrow every time Marc wins and that's all they care about.

If changing the RCV to make the bike more rider friendly for the other Honda riders means they have to change the design to a point that hurts Marc's ability to be super hard on the front, they are NOT going to do it.
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Last edited by moto vudu; February 27th, 2020 at 08:52 AM.
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February 27th, 2020, 08:58 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Answer me this: If it's that simple for Honda to build a rider friendly bike, why the fuck don't they do it?

Japanese business people are famous for their pragmatism. How then to explain the way if it's no big deal to make a rider friendly bike, are they are putting all their eggs in one basket?

Also - if it were so simple to build rider friendly bike, which would mean more Hondas on the podium, therefore more prestige and greater attraction for sponsorship money - why do they lack the will to do so?
It would seem that it's really difficult to find that 'sweet spot' and only occasionally is it found. At the moment, on one side of the spectrum, you have the Yamaha and Suzuki that both seem nimble and rideable. However, they lack grunt which translates to a relative deficit in straight-line speed and acceleration. OTO side of the spectrum are the Honda and Ducati which have the grunt, but lack the ride-ability which makes it difficult for the riders. ATM, Honda has a rider that can ride around the handling issues of the bike, making him dominant. MM at the moment prefers the more difficult, though faster option. Honda as well do not wish to fundamentally change the bike's development in fear of losing raw pace.

I doubt very much that they disregard the riders. Afterall, what's the point of having a bike that no-one can ride. However, if they do have a rider winning them championships, why risk losing what they currently have going by fundamentally changing the bike?
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Last edited by misfit; February 27th, 2020 at 09:00 AM.
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February 27th, 2020, 10:09 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
Why would they make a rider friendly bike when they're winning championships by only focusing on the talents of Marquez?

Look at it like this, lets say Marquez and Lorenzo were teammates at Yamaha. Imagine Yamaha designed the M1 for Lorenzo's riding style, but the bike sucks under hard braking on corner entry. Marquez is suffering because he can't brake the bike the way he needs to, but Lorenzo is kicking ass in the championship. Yamaha could compromise and change the M1 to accommodate Marc's need for better braking stability, but lets say that change then hurts Lorenzo's corner entry. So instead of compromise they continue to develop the bike to maximize Lorenzo's talent for high corner speed, high lean-angle, smooth style and Lorenzo keeps winning championships.
Now obviously Yamaha doesn't make the bike for just 1 rider, but HRC has no problems doing that if they believe maximizing the talent of 1 rider is what will win them championships. The lack of other Honda riders on the podium doesn't seem to bother them one bit, they celebrate like there's no tomorrow every time Marc wins and that's all they care about.

If changing the RCV to make the bike more rider friendly for the other Honda riders means they have to change the design to a point that hurts Marc's ability to be super hard on the front, they are NOT going to do it.
Answering a question with a question is simply doggedly refusing to acknowledge the lack of logical, plausible answer.

Why make a bike that more than one rider can win on? I've already answered that question. More prestige and increased visibility leading to better sponsorship money.

Again the question you can't answer: Why NOT make a more rideable bike? If it's more rideable for lesser talents, it would defacto, make it more rideable for Marquez, who in turn would crash less and have a longer career adding to Honda's brand, instead of leaving him crippled with injuries like Pedrosa, leading to early retirement.
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February 27th, 2020, 10:34 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Answering a question with a question is simply doggedly refusing to acknowledge the lack of logical, plausible answer.

Why make a bike that more than one rider can win on? I've already answered that question. More prestige and increased visibility leading to better sponsorship money.

Again the question you can't answer: Why NOT make a more rideable bike? If it's more rideable for lesser talents, it would defacto, make it more rideable for Marquez, who in turn would crash less and have a longer career adding to Honda's brand, instead of leaving him crippled with injuries like Pedrosa, leading to early retirement.
It's not easy to make a bike more than one rider can win on when your #1 rider has such a radical riding style. By maximizing Marc's talent, that allows them to have a bike that's much stronger than the competition in certain areas. If they make a better all-around bike, it's likely Marc would win less because the RCV's limits would be closer (or less than) those of the M1 and Ducati. That could actually cause Marc to crash more often as he would be desperate to take even bigger risks.

You keep talking about prestige and brand visibility, that already have that. Even in WSBK for the past few years HRC hasn't give a damn about making any sort of serious effort. What about their precious image and prestige?? They don't care! It's the Marquez show for them until something changes and forces them to go a different direction.

Bottomline is HRC doesn't have any incentive to change what's currently working for them. Especially now that Marc just committed to stay with them.
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Last edited by moto vudu; February 27th, 2020 at 10:38 AM.
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February 27th, 2020, 12:29 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
It's not easy to make a bike more than one rider can win on when your #1 rider has such a radical riding style. By maximizing Marc's talent, that allows them to have a bike that's much stronger than the competition in certain areas. If they make a better all-around bike, it's likely Marc would win less because the RCV's limits would be closer (or less than) those of the M1 and Ducati. That could actually cause Marc to crash more often as he would be desperate to take even bigger risks.

You keep talking about prestige and brand visibility, that already have that. Even in WSBK for the past few years HRC hasn't give a damn about making any sort of serious effort. What about their precious image and prestige?? They don't care! It's the Marquez show for them until something changes and forces them to go a different direction.

Bottomline is HRC doesn't have any incentive to change what's currently working for them. Especially now that Marc just committed to stay with them.
Why you insist on thinking that a better handling bike would hobble Marquez is unfathomable.

Historically - the thing that most often sets the "aliens" apart from the pack, is their ability to compensate for the short-comings of the engineering people. That's why they were so anxious to hire Stoner and then have the first year rookie rule changed to get Marquez on a full factory bike ASAP.

In light of how many front end crashes Marquez has suffered with, to say nothing of the resulting injuries, it's absurd to posit that the bike is tailored to Marquez's specs. It should be obvious that he'd prefer a bike that doesn't constantly lose the front end, with back end shaking around like a wild bronco; especially when you compare the jiggling Honda to much more stable Ducati which - Makes Just As Much Power.

To make a laughable statement that Honda doesn't care about image and prestige is to admit - you know less than zero about Japanese business culture.

And then - you say there's no incentive to make a better bike that more riders can more successfully compete on. Really? Seriously? Better results as I said, mean more, higher paying sponsorship money - which translates to millions of dollars. Sounds like incentive to me.

And lastly, there's the constructor's championship, which is hugely important to manufacturers. Honda doesn't care about Marquez vs Quattararo. They care about beating Yamaha and upstart Ducati.
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February 27th, 2020, 01:16 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
You are clearly cherry picking what you hear and then responding to things I did not say or imply.

That his championships are evidentally a product fueled 98% by his talent is obvious to anyone who has watched him race. This forum and other forums and every form of social media interested in this sport is filled with photos, videos and comments about, his nearly supernatural abilities to save the front end on the shite handling Hondas, that have left all the Honda riders in the last 7 seasons high and dry or in the hospital. You cannot discount this. Look at the way he consistently walked away from the 30 other riders on any given day in Moto 2, coming from the back of the pack and winning with 8 second cushion - on a nearly identical bike, and then tell me he's not the winning factor.

Clearly you know I never implied that nobody ever won on a Honda other than Marquez. Yet you absurdly try to dodge the implications of the undeniable fact that no other Honda rider over the course of Marquez's years in MotoGp have accomplished shit. Can you even remember (without Googling) the last time any other Honda rider was on the regularly on the podium?

If the bike is only rideable by one ultra-phenomenol rider, it's not a great bike. It's a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider. Without Marquez the RCV213 is a joke.
Yeah he is a great rider. Yeah others struggle to get the best out of the bike.
However as I stated in the post you just quoted he won the title for the 6th time, reduced his crash rate, and scored the record points haul on that machine designed by Honda engineers.
What part of those 3 points confirms that honda is "a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider"
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February 27th, 2020, 01:21 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Answer me this: If it's that simple for Honda to build a rider friendly bike, why the fuck don't they do it?

Japanese business people are famous for their pragmatism. How then to explain the way if it's no big deal to make a rider friendly bike, are they are putting all their eggs in one basket?

Also - if it were so simple to build rider friendly bike, which would mean more Hondas on the podium, therefore more prestige and greater attraction for sponsorship money - why do they lack the will to do so?
Because as Moto Vudu clearly explained in the post you quoted they are building the bike for Marquez and his abilities.
Given his record they seem to be doing quite well, not poorly as you suggest, based on press reports of a test at a track that MM hasn't won on since 2014.

Last edited by warthog1; February 27th, 2020 at 01:41 PM.
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February 27th, 2020, 01:28 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Why you insist on thinking that a better handling bike would hobble Marquez is unfathomable.

Historically - the thing that most often sets the "aliens" apart from the pack, is their ability to compensate for the short-comings of the engineering people. That's why they were so anxious to hire Stoner and then have the first year rookie rule changed to get Marquez on a full factory bike ASAP.

In light of how many front end crashes Marquez has suffered with, to say nothing of the resulting injuries, it's absurd to posit that the bike is tailored to Marquez's specs. It should be obvious that he'd prefer a bike that doesn't constantly lose the front end, with back end shaking around like a wild bronco; especially when you compare the jiggling Honda to much more stable Ducati which - Makes Just As Much Power.

To make a laughable statement that Honda doesn't care about image and prestige is to admit - you know less than zero about Japanese business culture.

And then - you say there's no incentive to make a better bike that more riders can more successfully compete on. Really? Seriously? Better results as I said, mean more, higher paying sponsorship money - which translates to millions of dollars. Sounds like incentive to me.

And lastly, there's the constructor's championship, which is hugely important to manufacturers. Honda doesn't care about Marquez vs Quattararo. They care about beating Yamaha and upstart Ducati.
Hugely important.
What more important than the riders title?
They did win it last year these incompetent engineers you realise?

They seem to do it fairly regularly it appears, missed out once since 2011

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tors_champions
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February 27th, 2020, 02:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
Yeah he is a great rider. Yeah others struggle to get the best out of the bike.
However as I stated in the post you just quoted he won the title for the 6th time, reduced his crash rate, and scored the record points haul on that machine designed by Honda engineers.
What part of those 3 points confirms that honda is "a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider"
Again - you're cherry picking, refusing to address simple questions that undermine everything you claim to believe. 6 Seasons in and the bike that you allege to be tailor made for MM and he was still crashing twice as much as his closest competitors.

Reduced his crash rate. LOL - That's like an inspector praising a team of firemen because after having the firehouse burn down six years in a row, there was still 8% of the firehouse still unburned.

Last edited by Keshav; February 27th, 2020 at 03:47 PM.
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February 27th, 2020, 02:38 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
Hugely important.
What more important than the riders title?
They did win it last year these incompetent engineers you realise?

They seem to do it fairly regularly it appears, missed out once since 2011

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tors_champions
My answer to your question is right there quoted in your post. At end of day, it's not Marquez's victory they savor. It's the beating the other factories.
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