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February 26th, 2020, 07:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Because nobody but Marquez can ride the damned thing. You are being willfully being blind to the fact that Marquez could just as easily (if not more so) won those championships on the Ducati. It's not the Honda that's riding Marquez. It's the other way around.
I am not being wilfully blind. The evidence is that Honda have supplied Marquez a bike, 6 times out of 7, he can win the title with. He just achieved the highest ever point score total for a season.
That proves to me they do listen to his input, they do respond and they do provide a fast bike.
He isn't the only person to ever win the title on a Honda. I seem to remember Spencer, Doohan, Rossi going ok too.
I haven't seen MM ride any other motoGP machine. Doesn't mean he couldn't win on it. I just don't have that evidence.
I do have evidence their engineers are capable of supplying a championship winning machine. Ample evidence in fact.
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February 26th, 2020, 08:30 PM   #22
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HRC developed the bike for Marquez, they don't care that the other Honda riders can't ride it (same way they didn't give a damn about Hayden in '07 when they made the Pedro-cycle). There really isn't anything wrong with the Honda, it has compromises like all the other bikes, but it's the best bike on the grid for the one rider it is designed for.

Last edited by moto vudu; February 26th, 2020 at 08:33 PM.
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February 27th, 2020, 01:01 AM   #23
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pfeeww, you guys have a way to make discussions boring !

Anything else apart marquez to discuss out of the testing ?
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February 27th, 2020, 05:08 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
I am not being wilfully blind. The evidence is that Honda have supplied Marquez a bike, 6 times out of 7, he can win the title with. He just achieved the highest ever point score total for a season.
That proves to me they do listen to his input, they do respond and they do provide a fast bike.
He isn't the only person to ever win the title on a Honda. I seem to remember Spencer, Doohan, Rossi going ok too.
I haven't seen MM ride any other motoGP machine. Doesn't mean he couldn't win on it. I just don't have that evidence.
I do have evidence their engineers are capable of supplying a championship winning machine. Ample evidence in fact.
You are clearly cherry picking what you hear and then responding to things I did not say or imply.

That his championships are evidentally a product fueled 98% by his talent is obvious to anyone who has watched him race. This forum and other forums and every form of social media interested in this sport is filled with photos, videos and comments about, his nearly supernatural abilities to save the front end on the shite handling Hondas, that have left all the Honda riders in the last 7 seasons high and dry or in the hospital. You cannot discount this. Look at the way he consistently walked away from the 30 other riders on any given day in Moto 2, coming from the back of the pack and winning with 8 second cushion - on a nearly identical bike, and then tell me he's not the winning factor.

Clearly you know I never implied that nobody ever won on a Honda other than Marquez. Yet you absurdly try to dodge the implications of the undeniable fact that no other Honda rider over the course of Marquez's years in MotoGp have accomplished shit. Can you even remember (without Googling) the last time any other Honda rider was on the regularly on the podium?

If the bike is only rideable by one ultra-phenomenol rider, it's not a great bike. It's a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider. Without Marquez the RCV213 is a joke.
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February 27th, 2020, 05:14 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by darkkakashi View Post
pfeeww, you guys have a way to make discussions boring !

Anything else apart marquez to discuss out of the testing ?
You're not entertained??? Pity. Say, here's an idea. Why don't YOU say something interesting for a change?
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February 27th, 2020, 06:03 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
You are clearly cherry picking what you hear and then responding to things I did not say or imply.

That his championships are evidentally a product fueled 98% by his talent is obvious to anyone who has watched him race. This forum and other forums and every form of social media interested in this sport is filled with photos, videos and comments about, his nearly supernatural abilities to save the front end on the shite handling Hondas, that have left all the Honda riders in the last 7 seasons high and dry or in the hospital. You cannot discount this. Look at the way he consistently walked away from the 30 other riders on any given day in Moto 2, coming from the back of the pack and winning with 8 second cushion - on a nearly identical bike, and then tell me he's not the winning factor.

Clearly you know I never implied that nobody ever won on a Honda other than Marquez. Yet you absurdly try to dodge the implications of the undeniable fact that no other Honda rider over the course of Marquez's years in MotoGp have accomplished shit. Can you even remember (without Googling) the last time any other Honda rider was on the regularly on the podium?

If the bike is only rideable by one ultra-phenomenol rider, it's not a great bike. It's a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider. Without Marquez the RCV213 is a joke.
It is not either/or imo. The first liter bike was so dominant in Stoner’s hands in pre-season testing it was found necessary to handicap the bike. Dani won 7 races or so on it. The 2013 and particularly the 2014 bikes did not seem especially difficult either.

From 2015 on the bike has been rather more difficult. This may be at least partly related to them no longer being able to tame their engine with bespoke electronics, as I recall they threatened to withdraw from the sport at one stage if the control ECU was enforced, and seem to have been later to the party than Yamaha and particularly Ducati with that device.

At present I think he and the Honda engineers are well matched, they follow their natural inclinations and engineer the bike to be as fast as possible with encouragement from him, he rides it when no-one else can. There probably comes a tipping point where even he can’t ride the thing, and I am not sure he can go on forever falling off it 30 odd times a year as he reputedly did last season. As I have said I am fairly confident about the 9th and 10th, not so sure about the 15th.
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February 27th, 2020, 06:35 AM   #27
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It is not either/or imo. The first liter bike was so dominant in Stoner’s hands in pre-season testing it was found necessary to handicap the bike. Dani won 7 races or so on it. The 2013 and particularly the 2014 bikes did not seem especially difficult either.

From 2015 on the bike has been rather more difficult. This may be at least partly related to them no longer being able to tame their engine with bespoke electronics, as I recall they threatened to withdraw from the sport at one stage if the control ECU was enforced, and seem to have been later to the party than Yamaha and particularly Ducati with that device.

At present I think he and the Honda engineers are well matched, they follow their natural inclinations and engineer the bike to be as fast as possible with encouragement from him, he rides it when no-one else can. There probably comes a tipping point where even he can’t ride the thing, and I am not sure he can go on forever falling off it 30 odd times a year as he reputedly did last season. As I have said I am fairly confident about the 9th and 10th, not so sure about the 15th.
Of course it's not. My point is - what with no current Honda rider being able to get close to the podium, that without Marquez at the helm, Ducati would be very much dominant these last five or six seasons.

Dani was a really talented rider, as pointed out many times here - very much underappreciated, who struggled with the Honda despite the fact that beginning 2007 the RCV was allegedly tailor made to suit him. And what races he won, cost him dearly in terms of how frequently the RCV lost the front end. Honda could have saved a lot of money by building him his own personal gas-sipping ambulance.

The fact that HRC had to handicap the bike - is further evidence of Honda engineers designing the bike in tech-bubble that creates "upgrades" that look impressive on a computer monitor, but don't translate to real world advantage for actual riders. The way Honda got caught with their pants down with the introduction of Magnetti Marelli electronics for all - is very telling.

As to Stoner winning on the 2011 Honda; hell, that was a given. If he could win the way he did on the Ducati, you knew he was going to ride around the Honda's issues; issues less glaring at the time because the Ducatis were largely unrideable. Rossi was out of the picture floundering on the Ducati. Stoner's only real competition that year were Lorenzo and Pedrosa. Spies looked promising but his bikes kept disintegrating. The rest of the field were pretty lackluster talent-wise.

Last edited by Keshav; February 27th, 2020 at 06:40 AM.
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February 27th, 2020, 06:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
You are clearly cherry picking what you hear and then responding to things I did not say or imply.

That his championships are evidentally a product fueled 98% by his talent is obvious to anyone who has watched him race. This forum and other forums and every form of social media interested in this sport is filled with photos, videos and comments about, his nearly supernatural abilities to save the front end on the shite handling Hondas, that have left all the Honda riders in the last 7 seasons high and dry or in the hospital. You cannot discount this. Look at the way he consistently walked away from the 30 other riders on any given day in Moto 2, coming from the back of the pack and winning with 8 second cushion - on a nearly identical bike, and then tell me he's not the winning factor.

Clearly you know I never implied that nobody ever won on a Honda other than Marquez. Yet you absurdly try to dodge the implications of the undeniable fact that no other Honda rider over the course of Marquez's years in MotoGp have accomplished shit. Can you even remember (without Googling) the last time any other Honda rider was on the regularly on the podium?

If the bike is only rideable by one ultra-phenomenol rider, it's not a great bike. It's a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider. Without Marquez the RCV213 is a joke.
How many years have people been saying that Honda wins by outspending the other factories? As long as anyone can recall. They made a very fast bike that handles like crap, but they can afford to pay a crazy salary to lock in the best rider of the last two decades. Take him out of the equation and Dovi would now have multiple championships, and Honda would be sitting around with their thumb up their ass.
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February 27th, 2020, 08:15 AM   #29
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Take Marquez out of the equation and HRC simply spends the $$$ to develop a bike that their other riders can ride. The RCV only handles like crap for everyone other than Marquez, but that's by design.

When you have a rider like Marquez who can push the front-end to the limit consistently, you can design a bike to take advantage of that ability. But the other riders who don't share the same talent to be that hard on the front, will not really reap the benefits of that design change. The other riders have strengths in other areas, but HRC doesn't care about them and they're willing to put all their eggs in one basket. It's typical HRC and it has won them championships.
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February 27th, 2020, 08:35 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
Take Marquez out of the equation and HRC simply spends the $$$ to develop a bike that their other riders can ride. The RCV only handles like crap for everyone other than Marquez, but that's by design.

When you have a rider like Marquez who can push the front-end to the limit consistently, you can design a bike to take advantage of that ability. But the other riders who don't share the same talent to be that hard on the front, will not really reap the benefits of that design change. The other riders have strengths in other areas, but HRC doesn't care about them and they're willing to put all their eggs in one basket. It's typical HRC and it has won them championships.
Answer me this: If it's that simple for Honda to build a rider friendly bike, why the fuck don't they do it?

Japanese business people are famous for their pragmatism. How then to explain the way if it's no big deal to make a rider friendly bike, are they are putting all their eggs in one basket?

Also - if it were so simple to build rider friendly bike, which would mean more Hondas on the podium, therefore more prestige and greater attraction for sponsorship money - why do they lack the will to do so?
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