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February 26th, 2020, 03:37 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Never said he didnít give feedback. I just think folks overestimate the degree to which said feedback actually determines engineering outcomes. Honda and Ducati engineers are famous for being egoistically attached to engineering concepts they work so hard on, believing riders are just another component that needs to adapt rather than the other way around. Remember when Ducati sent Melandri to a psychologist because they thought his mind wasnít capable of wrapping itself around their tech concepts? The problem was clearly the bike, but the engineering department was blind to that. Hondaís been repeatedly guilty of that same mindset.

To fans the rider is a god, leading the charge into battle. To the factory - the rider is just another hired gun paid to do a job.
If they are that egotisically attached to concepts they work so hard on they are hardly likely to revert to last years, or the years before, components are they.
The engineers aren't perfect, it didn't work, lets try again.
At the end of the day Honda want to win.
They are spending a shed load of money to do so.
What works for their best rider is what eventuates regardless of engineering concepts if they dont work.
Marquez and his crew will choose what works and Honda will provide it.
If that is a variation of an older frame, older suspension components or older aero package that will be what is used.

Last edited by warthog1; February 26th, 2020 at 03:51 AM.
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February 26th, 2020, 06:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Never said he didnít give feedback. I just think folks overestimate the degree to which said feedback actually determines engineering outcomes. Honda and Ducati engineers are famous for being egoistically attached to engineering concepts they work so hard on, believing riders are just another component that needs to adapt rather than the other way around. Remember when Ducati sent Melandri to a psychologist because they thought his mind wasnít capable of wrapping itself around their tech concepts? The problem was clearly the bike, but the engineering department was blind to that. Hondaís been repeatedly guilty of that same mindset.

To fans the rider is a god, leading the charge into battle. To the factory - the rider is just another hired gun paid to do a job.


There was never such a "rider's feedback can improve the bike" before the "development god era" but it seems to have stuck a lot.

I see it more like you and the brands, they will give the riders a bike and the riders will work to find their set up, these set ups will only lead the Pilot to the position his skill on said bike will earn him and will most likely not work for the other Pilots.

Then the test pilots test parts & shit and give feedback if they work well or not, If he says yes they will most likely give it to one of the not so fast riders to test in real race conditions, if he says no and they take it at face value they might discard it & if they do not take at face value then: again give it to the not so fast pilot to test in real race conditions.

If the part or improvement is good then they will offer it to their faster pilots.

I am wrong?
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February 26th, 2020, 11:07 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
If they are that egotisically attached to concepts they work so hard on they are hardly likely to revert to last years, or the years before, components are they.
The engineers aren't perfect, it didn't work, lets try again.
At the end of the day Honda want to win.
They are spending a shed load of money to do so.
What works for their best rider is what eventuates regardless of engineering concepts if they dont work.
Marquez and his crew will choose what works and Honda will provide it.
If that is a variation of an older frame, older suspension components or older aero package that will be what is used.
They do so but grudgingly and only after the rider embarrasses them by publicly stating a preference for the older tech. This has occurred many times both with HRC and Yamaha over the years. I've been following the sport since '79 and seen this happen time and time again. One of the most infamous incidents being when Freddie Spencer and Irv Kanemoto were so fed up with the Honda's engineers, that they spent their own money to have a frame made to their specs by an independent non-Japanese maker. Honda were furious! Especially because the bike ran so well with the British made frame.

Last edited by Keshav; February 26th, 2020 at 11:09 AM.
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February 26th, 2020, 11:08 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by 320Dave View Post
There was never such a "rider's feedback can improve the bike" before the "development god era" but it seems to have stuck a lot.

I see it more like you and the brands, they will give the riders a bike and the riders will work to find their set up, these set ups will only lead the Pilot to the position his skill on said bike will earn him and will most likely not work for the other Pilots.

Then the test pilots test parts & shit and give feedback if they work well or not, If he says yes they will most likely give it to one of the not so fast riders to test in real race conditions, if he says no and they take it at face value they might discard it & if they do not take at face value then: again give it to the not so fast pilot to test in real race conditions.

If the part or improvement is good then they will offer it to their faster pilots.

I am wrong?
Standard practice.
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February 26th, 2020, 01:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
They do so but grudgingly and only after the rider embarrasses them by publicly stating a preference for the older tech. This has occurred many times both with HRC and Yamaha over the years. I've been following the sport since '79 and seen this happen time and time again. One of the most infamous incidents being when Freddie Spencer and Irv Kanemoto were so fed up with the Honda's engineers, that they spent their own money to have a frame made to their specs by an independent non-Japanese maker. Honda were furious! Especially because the bike ran so well with the British made frame.
I am a crusty old bastard too, but maybe slightly less old.
I've been following it since the the mid 80s.
Yes bikes have come out that are hard to ride, lack feel, lack feedback.
We dont have to look back very far at all with the Honda for a bike that didn't work immediately. 2015.
Even MM was struggling to ride around that.

Going back to the days of Erv and Eddie winning the title in 89 doesn't bear that much similarity with the current situation. The paddock and technology has moved on a fair bit from those days.
It is perhaps a good example of why the manufacturers listen to the feedback of the riders.
If they have what they need they can win.
As Erv and Eddie did when they sorted that bike.
MM can produce the goods but despite his ability to ride around problems even he needs a certain level of rideability. I am sure they are well aware of that and will be trying to provide better based on his feedback.
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February 26th, 2020, 03:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
I am a crusty old bastard too, but maybe slightly less old.
I've been following it since the the mid 80s.
Yes bikes have come out that are hard to ride, lack feel, lack feedback.
We dont have to look back very far at all with the Honda for a bike that didn't work immediately. 2015.
Even MM was struggling to ride around that.

Going back to the days of Erv and Eddie winning the title in 89 doesn't bear that much similarity with the current situation. The paddock and technology has moved on a fair bit from those days.
It is perhaps a good example of why the manufacturers listen to the feedback of the riders.
If they have what they need they can win.
As Erv and Eddie did when they sorted that bike.
MM can produce the goods but despite his ability to ride around problems even he needs a certain level of rideability. I am sure they are well aware of that and will be trying to provide better based on his feedback.
Mate, these points while true, don't in any way counter what I'm saying. It's not about the paddock or the level of technology. It's about the culture and mindset of engineers and that remains unchanged.

Naturally MM needs a degree of rideability. Goes without saying.

However, the frequency with which engineers create flash new technology that makes the bikes much less rideable, makes for strong empirical evidence that engineers regularly do a shite job of realizing changes desired by riders, or just giving lip service to the problem solving ideas that riders put out there.

There has to be a logical explanation why engineers get it wrong with such regularity. This is not an idea that just popped into my head. Having heard it from too many race mechanics it's hard to ignore.
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February 26th, 2020, 04:43 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Mate, these points while true, don't in any way counter what I'm saying. It's not about the paddock or the level of technology. It's about the culture and mindset of engineers and that remains unchanged.



Naturally MM needs a degree of rideability. Goes without saying.



However, the frequency with which engineers create flash new technology that makes the bikes much less rideable, makes for strong empirical evidence that engineers regularly do a shite job of realizing changes desired by riders, or just giving lip service to the problem solving ideas that riders put out there.



There has to be a logical explanation why engineers get it wrong with such regularity. This is not an idea that just popped into my head. Having heard it from too many race mechanics it's hard to ignore.
I think you underestimate how hard it is to make these things faster.
It isn't just Honda struggling.
Aprilia, Ducati, KTM Yam, Suzuki they all struggle with weak points.
The engineers last year needed more power in the Honda.
A great big air intake in the front of the thing required modifications that are at least part of the reason the front end is more vague.
More power was needed and more was delivered.
MM was able to be faster with it.
The engineering purpose for the whole bike is more speed.
I don't see the evidence that Honda is adhering to an engineering principle regardless of the ability to ride the bike faster.

I just see evidence that making them faster within the rules specified at the extreme limits they are ridden is not an easy task.
The evidence that Honda cater to MMs wishes is evidenced by 6 titles in 7 seasons and the 4 year contract he has just signed. I don't see that he would have signed that if the engineers/company weren't listening.
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February 26th, 2020, 05:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
I think you underestimate how hard it is to make these things faster.
It isn't just Honda struggling.
Aprilia, Ducati, KTM Yam, Suzuki they all struggle with weak points.
The engineers last year needed more power in the Honda.
A great big air intake in the front of the thing required modifications that are at least part of the reason the front end is more vague.
More power was needed and more was delivered.
MM was able to be faster with it.
The engineering purpose for the whole bike is more speed.
I don't see the evidence that Honda is adhering to an engineering principle regardless of the ability to ride the bike faster.

I just see evidence that making them faster within the rules specified at the extreme limits they are ridden is not an easy task.
The evidence that Honda cater to MMs wishes is evidenced by 6 titles in 7 seasons and the 4 year contract he has just signed. I don't see that he would have signed that if the engineers/company weren't listening.
You keep introducing more and more irrelevant points.

Aprilia (and KTM) are in their infancy as regards MotoGp. Apples and oranges.

Suzuki, conversely just keeps getting better. Small increments, but improving steadily.

Since the arrival of Gigi, Ducati keeps coming up with useful innovations.

Yamaha seems to have lost the thread ever since Marquez arrived, or if some are to be believed, since Rossi returned from Ducati.

You say, "I don't see the evidence that Honda is adhering to an engineering principle regardless of the ability to ride the bike faster. "

And yet the evidence is there, clear as day to anyone with eyes to see. Have you missed the fact that no other Honda rider has accomplished anything on the HRC bike in years. Other than Marquez who who has a genius for riding around problems, the other riders are all out in the wilderness. Compare those results to that of all the riders after Dovi - on the Ducati. The Honda is an unrideable missile; total clusterfuck.
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February 26th, 2020, 05:18 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
You keep introducing more and more irrelevant points.



Aprilia (and KTM) are in their infancy as regards MotoGp. Apples and oranges.



Suzuki, conversely just keeps getting better. Small increments, but improving steadily.



Since the arrival of Gigi, Ducati keeps coming up with useful innovations.



Yamaha seems to have lost the thread ever since Marquez arrived, or if some are to be believed, since Rossi returned from Ducati.



You say, "I don't see the evidence that Honda is adhering to an engineering principle regardless of the ability to ride the bike faster. "



And yet the evidence is there, clear as day to anyone with eyes to see. Have you missed the fact that no other Honda rider has accomplished anything on the HRC bike in years. Other than Marquez who who has a genius for riding around problems, the other riders are all out in the wilderness. Compare those results to that of all the riders after Dovi - on the Ducati. The Honda is an unrideable missile; total clusterfuck.
Again you fail to provide evidence.
If it is a cluster fcuk then how did he reduce his crash rate and score the season record points.
They gave him what he needed to win, it didn't gel with the other riders but have we seen other riders can do what he can?
Dani managed to win on previous versions of the cluster f as has Cal.
Again 6 titles in 7 years. What they are doing is working for MM. He asked for more power and speed, he got it.
He sums it up quite well as I posted elsewhere;


"You need to know if you want an easier bike or a faster bike. I don't care if the bike is difficult as long as it's faster.

"I'm the first one who wants to keep the power but at the same time have more traction and a smoother engine, and that's what all the Honda riders are saying. But the Honda engine has been the same since I arrived in 2013, and that's not going to change now."

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/ne...chlow/4559277/

We will see how that engineering suits him this year and for the next 4.
They may be in trouble after that until they get the next gun to stick a rocket under as they have done over and over.

Last edited by warthog1; February 26th, 2020 at 05:22 PM.
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February 26th, 2020, 06:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
Again you fail to provide evidence.
If it is a cluster fcuk then how did he reduce his crash rate and score the season record points.
They gave him what he needed to win, it didn't gel with the other riders but have we seen other riders can do what he can?
Dani managed to win on previous versions of the cluster f as has Cal.
Again 6 titles in 7 years. What they are doing is working for MM. He asked for more power and speed, he got it.
He sums it up quite well as I posted elsewhere;


"You need to know if you want an easier bike or a faster bike. I don't care if the bike is difficult as long as it's faster.

"I'm the first one who wants to keep the power but at the same time have more traction and a smoother engine, and that's what all the Honda riders are saying. But the Honda engine has been the same since I arrived in 2013, and that's not going to change now."

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/ne...chlow/4559277/

We will see how that engineering suits him this year and for the next 4.
They may be in trouble after that until they get the next gun to stick a rocket under as they have done over and over.
Because nobody but Marquez can ride the damned thing. You are choosing to look the other way regarding the patently obvious truth that Marquez could just as easily (if not more so) won those championships on the Ducati. It's not the Honda that's riding Marquez. It's the other way around. The championship "win factor" isn't the bike. It's Marquez.
Mick D likes this.

Last edited by Keshav; February 26th, 2020 at 07:02 PM.
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