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March 11th, 2020, 07:05 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
1. Marquez over riding the bike is what separates him from others.
2.The ability to force the bike in hard and over stress the front tyre is not something you'd expect to see disappear.

3.He has done it all the way through his open class time.

4.He doesn't appear too upset with how the bike has behaved and has done well regardless of how well others have been able to ride it.

5.The length of the contract just signed are not the actions of someone who is struggling mentally with motivation or drive.

6. Injury may stop him but there is not evidence of a change in approach yet.

7.Crashing with a recently repaired shoulder is not someone unprepared to push hard as he has done all the way through.
1. Astounding powers of observation there. Why hasn't anybody else here noticed this?
2. Why?
3. So naturally there's no reason to think he might ever evolve or change his ways?
4. Because he's young and preternaturally confident?
5. (see 4)
6. Actually it's totally observable that he's become much more canny, far less reckless and a much better tactician since joining the big boy class.
7. Because (see 4) and also he has not entirely outgrown his need to over ride the bike in order to discourage the competition by decimating the field, which admittedly gives us the fans a great show. Like Doohan, the kid is a machine. He has that killer instinct. If Yamaha steps up their game and Fabio goes from strength to strength, he is going to need that.
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March 11th, 2020, 07:55 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Little Walter View Post
1. Astounding powers of observation there. Why hasn't anybody else here noticed this?
2. Why?
3. So naturally there's no reason to think he might ever evolve or change his ways?
4. Because he's young and preternaturally confident?
5. (see 4)
6. Actually it's totally observable that he's become much more canny, far less reckless and a much better tactician since joining the big boy class.
7. Because (see 4) and also he has not entirely outgrown his need to over ride the bike in order to discourage the competition by decimating the field, which admittedly gives us the fans a great show. Like Doohan, the kid is a machine. He has that killer instinct. If Yamaha steps up their game and Fabio goes from strength to strength, he is going to need that.
1. I disagree with any suggestion or inference it will disappear is the point I am making, due to the benefit, competitively, he receives.
2. The ability to push the front hard and save it gives him an advantage. Why do you think he is going to forego that advantage?
3, 4. He is 27 now, not that young. Entering his 8th season having won 6 of the 7 he has entered. He has had his 2nd shoulder repaired and is still pushing hard enough in testing to crash twice. The evidence is that he hasn't substantively altered his over the limit riding style.
5. A 4 year contract with the same team gives him stability and security. I would say that indicates he is happy with the services and equipment Honda is providing. Coming off the back of a record points haul and another title it does not indicate someone who is unhappy with what he is riding. 27 years old and 8 titles is not a young and inexperienced racer who has little insight into the risks and demands of the sport.
6. He is crashing less true and it is undeniable he has improved. He still pushes that front hard and is still crashing and saving multiple slides.
You can also argue that the greater acceleration and top speed of the 2019 machine meant less risks were necessary. There was less ground to make up on corner entry and braking as less was lost in a straight line and corner exit.
7. I disagree with the premise that he is young and overconfident and cocky largely due to his age. He has plenty of experience and has been racing a long time. His approach is not stupid or unplanned as demonstrated repeatedly by results.
Agree he is going to need the ability to ride over the limit and yes an improved Yamaha with Fab and Mav on board has the potential to really push him. He will keep pushing, saving, finding and knowing the limit in practice so that he knows how much he can push in the race.

Last edited by warthog1; March 11th, 2020 at 08:03 PM.
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March 11th, 2020, 09:35 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
He seems to only really do that in practice though.


I think Stoner's scaphoid was seriously injured in a 250cc crash, but maybe I'm wrong.
Sure, hardly ever crashes in races now.

I think Stoner did fracture his scaphoid in the 250s, but then got the known complication which is avascular necrosis and it fell apart after a fairly minor off when he was riding for Ducati.
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March 11th, 2020, 09:37 PM   #84
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I don't however doubt Marquez would prefer a bike that doesn't require him to unnecessarily overextend himself to ride around it's deficiencies.

Same as Stoner would have loved a Ducati that didn't require him to burn himself out riding around it's handling flaws. Remember all the times when Stone would be a full half lap or more ahead of the field and then - whoosh.... the front end would just disappear for no discernible reason???

Look at all the number of times MM has had to save the front end of the Honda and all the times, it just went away with no warning, leaving him beat up and injured. There's a definite parallel, Stoner with his scaphoid injury and MM with his messed up shoulders.

From the narrowest perspective, it's all good if nothing than the winning of the championship matters. But as said before, Honda is not advancing technologically as an industry leader, if they used MM as a band-aid fix for their short-comings. And from a spectator's point of view, we'd be getting a better show if the other three Honda riders had bikes that handled as well as the Yamaha or Suzuki, or at least a lot closer to them. They're talented riders who could be up at the front, instead of struggling to be in the top ten. It'd make for more passing and more exciting racing.
Stoner in a recent piece in the Australian press spoke of having CFS, so you were right all those years ago.
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March 12th, 2020, 04:44 AM   #85
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Stoner in a recent piece in the Australian press spoke of having CFS, so you were right all those years ago.
CFS is tough to deal with on so many levels. Many physicians believe it doesn't exist. Many chalk it up to hypochondria or some unspecified nervous disorder or depression. And there are a lot of very high-price quacks, in fancy offices out there specializing in it's treatment, using very expensive blood tests and questionable hair analysis tests etc. etc. - selling shelves upon shelves of proprieteary brand supplements and giving useless IV vitamin drips that do nothing. I don't want to think how much money I wasted on these guys. Finally figured out by elimination diet that I couldn't do gluten and dairy and sugar. Got healthy again.

Last edited by Keshav; March 12th, 2020 at 01:25 PM.
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March 12th, 2020, 09:19 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
1. I disagree with any suggestion or inference it will disappear is the point I am making, due to the benefit, competitively, he receives.
2. The ability to push the front hard and save it gives him an advantage. Why do you think he is going to forego that advantage?
3, 4. He is 27 now, not that young. Entering his 8th season having won 6 of the 7 he has entered. He has had his 2nd shoulder repaired and is still pushing hard enough in testing to crash twice. The evidence is that he hasn't substantively altered his over the limit riding style.
5. A 4 year contract with the same team gives him stability and security. I would say that indicates he is happy with the services and equipment Honda is providing. Coming off the back of a record points haul and another title it does not indicate someone who is unhappy with what he is riding. 27 years old and 8 titles is not a young and inexperienced racer who has little insight into the risks and demands of the sport.
6. He is crashing less true and it is undeniable he has improved. He still pushes that front hard and is still crashing and saving multiple slides.
You can also argue that the greater acceleration and top speed of the 2019 machine meant less risks were necessary. There was less ground to make up on corner entry and braking as less was lost in a straight line and corner exit.
7. I disagree with the premise that he is young and overconfident and cocky largely due to his age. He has plenty of experience and has been racing a long time. His approach is not stupid or unplanned as demonstrated repeatedly by results.
Agree he is going to need the ability to ride over the limit and yes an improved Yamaha with Fab and Mav on board has the potential to really push him. He will keep pushing, saving, finding and knowing the limit in practice so that he knows how much he can push in the race.
I am thinking MM rides the Honda as he needs to in order to get it to go fast, the recipe to winning races etc.

You seem to imply that he deliberately accepts the way the Honda handles to keep his fellow Honda riders behind him. I don't see the basis for this.
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March 12th, 2020, 01:31 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
I am thinking MM rides the Honda as he needs to in order to get it to go fast, the recipe to winning races etc.

You seem to imply that he deliberately accepts the way the Honda handles to keep his fellow Honda riders behind him. I don't see the basis for this.
Seems to be human nature, the way some folks like to create hagiographic myths around things they either idolize or just can't explain.
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March 12th, 2020, 01:38 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit View Post
I am thinking MM rides the Honda as he needs to in order to get it to go fast, the recipe to winning races etc.



You seem to imply that he deliberately accepts the way the Honda handles to keep his fellow Honda riders behind him. I don't see the basis for this.
I made that point with respect to his ability to race the whole field not specifically the Honda riders

I am saying he is capable of pushing the front hard, sliding, catching and saving it.
It allows him to push harder into the corner than others can get away with.
The other Honda riders aren't high on the list.
They haven't been challenging him for wins and titles.
He appears to be able to ride around problems that others on the same bike can't.
There is less need for him to change what he can ride around.
I don't see it as a deliberate strategy to make the bike difficult.
If he is fast on it that is enough.
His target is to win not develop a bike everyone else can ride.

Last edited by warthog1; March 12th, 2020 at 01:55 PM.
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March 12th, 2020, 01:40 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Seems to be human nature, the way some folks like to create hagiographic myths around things they either idolize or just can't explain.
Seems human nature for others to attack the poster when they can't address or comprehend the point being made
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March 12th, 2020, 03:54 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
Seems human nature for others to attack the poster when they can't address or comprehend the point being made
I think what you are saying and what others are saying is not far apart.

The question for me is whether bike is difficult due to MM having poor development skills, which some, not necessarily you, imply. I am not sure whether he has development skills or not, but I think everyone agrees that he is riding around the deficiencies of the bike. The issue is whether he is responsible for those deficiencies, I don't think he is, except for being so successful that Honda have no incentive to change the bike drastically which is probably what would be required for it to suit other riders. They did make some attempt to make the bike more friendly by getting Lorenzo. I do think the effect of the control ECU, especially on Honda who both presumably designed the current bike and engine in particular with their own ECU and are or were behind the curve where the control ECU is concerned, is underestimated.

I have seen all 3 of the title winners post the Rossi era (EDIT the rest of this paragraph, somehow posted a preliminary version which Warthog read) called poor developers which does not seem to be true of at least Lorenzo and Stoner (Pedrosa won 7 races on the 2012 bike developed during Stoner's tenure despite forced changes to the bike and tyres), although as lead riders both MM's and Stoner's out there riding styles are and were likely problematic for other riders on bikes from their manufacturers. If you recall Stoner in 2007 was considered to have a massive bike advantage on a bike which rode itself because of the Ducati electronics. He did have an insuperable straight line advantage, useful only if you could get the bike through the corners though, which by later accounts was extremely difficult. In MM's case I think rideability is being compromised just to get parity or as close to parity as is possible in straight-line performance and acceleration from corners with Ducati.

If riders can't excel by riding as others can't they might as well abolish them however, and to me the regulations aimed at bike parity are being successful.
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Last edited by michaelm; March 12th, 2020 at 10:37 PM.
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