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March 7th, 2020, 04:12 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I don't see it as a dig at Marquez. It's critical observation about Honda's inability to make a bike that comparably rider friendly, to that of it's main competitors. Marquez is not directing Honda R&D. It's more that he is an enabler who rides around problems with the bike, allowing Honda to rest on their laurels, rather than digging in and coming up with solutions.

Race fans tend to have a myopic view of what Honda is and what their goals are as a business. The conglomerate entity known as Honda, does not exist for the sole purpose of competing at racetracks. While it's true that the Japanese enjoy the prestige gained by winning championships, it has to be borne in mind that much of the impetus of racing efforts is driven by the end value of the what the companies learn from the R&D that goes into creating competitive bikes - the worth of which in the long game is derived from being able to use that technology in the mass-produced products they sell to the general public.

Remember how successful the GSXR was when Spies and Mladin were racing each other? Club riders and pro riders alike were buying Gixxers like crazy back then. But imagine if you will, if the GSXRs handled like crap and nobody could use them unless they were as talented as Spies and Mladin.

Imagine if BMW built a sport car that was only capable when ridden by Louis Hamilton. Who would buy that car? Well maybe a few pretentious middle-ages schmucks with too much money. LOL.
Honda also have a history of producing MotoGP bikes which are difficult to ride. The golden era 500s were mostly brutal until Kanemoto and Eddie Lawson got their hands on one, with Gardner with his balls to the wall riding style winning a title by somehow staying on the thing rather than taming the bike.

I just don't see how MM can be responsible for the current Honda being deficient in straight line performance against the current Ducati cf the other thread. Maybe it was ever thus and Ducati just can make a more powerful engine in a fuel economy formula possibly related to the desmo valve gear, and even more so with a spec ECU with which they have been developing for a number of year longer than Honda, and Gigi with Dovi/Lorenzo/the Ducati test riders/whomever and doubtless good funding himself has got around the Ducati's own previous rideability issues. As I have said I think it is likely, particularly since it is pretty much what MM has said, that the difficulty of the current Honda is related to them making the bike as fast as possible whatever the cost in rideability to enable him to compete rather than them making a difficult bike per se because such a bike suits MM. The whole object of the spec ECU among other regulations was to even the field, and the avenues for HRC throwing bulk money at the bike to be a step ahead have been deliberately diminished. The spec ECU in particular was strongly resisted by HRC, and I don't think it is a wild surmise that the previous bespoke electronics and the resources they had available to expend in regard to same was an aspect where Honda believed they could find advantage, as well as being useful for general R and D and something they could sell the parent company on to fund GP bike racing. In the end I am sure they can get back to parity or better with the ECU etc, or design a new engine for that matter, but the latter might be a big undertaking even for Honda; Ducati wouldn't even enter GP bike racing until the formula was changed to one which suited their engine DNA. The Japanese don't bluff much, and I believe the threat to leave the sport if a spec ECU was mandated was genuine, and that bulk money for a GP bike racing program is not guaranteed in these modern times when corporations follow the dictates of the stock market, particularly given Honda are likely throwing a lot of money at their rekindled F1 effort.
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Last edited by michaelm; March 8th, 2020 at 04:43 AM.
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March 7th, 2020, 07:20 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
I see it pretty simply.
Honda competes.
They want to win.
Give Marquez what he needs to do the job and he does it.
Both parties seem happy.
They are in trouble without Marquez however.
They have been there before though.
Nobody's accusing you of overthinking things.
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March 7th, 2020, 09:18 PM   #73
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Nobody's accusing you of overthinking things.
Why thankyou
Pretty simple stuff really.
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March 10th, 2020, 02:32 PM   #74
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Rossi is riding into the sunset and not gonna win another championship, man. He would be lucky to win another race with Fabio getting better and faster on the same bike. I do get amused at people taking a dig at MM in a subtle way though.
What does Rossi have to do with this?
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March 10th, 2020, 02:36 PM   #75
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He won easily on a more generally rideable bike as well. The MM has made the bike difficult for others line seems more like the last thing left for his critics as he obliterates all of Rossiís records to me.

If they could easily give the bike more straight line performance, in regard to which the current Honda has deficiencies in comparison with Ducati according to another current thread, why donít they ?. I am sure MM wouldnít object.
That the bike is difficult for others is a completely irrelevant point from Marc's perspective. Marc's sole priority is and should be to develop the best tool for himself. If others can't hack it, that's their problem.
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March 11th, 2020, 01:19 AM   #76
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That the bike is difficult for others is a completely irrelevant point from Marc's perspective. Marc's sole priority is and should be to develop the best tool for himself. If others can't hack it, that's their problem.
No doubt he is doing what he does because he can and it is working results wise.

I also think that he is doing it because he must to win, there are all manner of regulations in place to even the equipment, and I think at least some of them, particularly the spec ECU, have worked. I see no reason why he would develop a poorly handling bike, I think it has been necessary to sacrifice rideability to be competitive in other areas, and I think things such as a major engine re-design have become expensive even for Honda. Of course Mick Doohan is reputed to have gone with the screamer engine back in the day because only he could ride it.
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March 11th, 2020, 10:44 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
That the bike is difficult for others is a completely irrelevant point from Marc's perspective. Marc's sole priority is and should be to develop the best tool for himself. If others can't hack it, that's their problem.
I don't however doubt Marquez would prefer a bike that doesn't require him to unnecessarily overextend himself to ride around it's deficiencies.

Same as Stoner would have loved a Ducati that didn't require him to burn himself out riding around it's handling flaws. Remember all the times when Stone would be a full half lap or more ahead of the field and then - whoosh.... the front end would just disappear for no discernible reason???

Look at all the number of times MM has had to save the front end of the Honda and all the times, it just went away with no warning, leaving him beat up and injured. There's a definite parallel, Stoner with his scaphoid injury and MM with his messed up shoulders.

From the narrowest perspective, it's all good if nothing than the winning of the championship matters. But as said before, Honda is not advancing technologically as an industry leader, if they used MM as a band-aid fix for their short-comings. And from a spectator's point of view, we'd be getting a better show if the other three Honda riders had bikes that handled as well as the Yamaha or Suzuki, or at least a lot closer to them. They're talented riders who could be up at the front, instead of struggling to be in the top ten. It'd make for more passing and more exciting racing.
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March 11th, 2020, 01:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Look at all the number of times MM has had to save the front end of the Honda and all the times, it just went away with no warning, leaving him beat up and injured.
He seems to only really do that in practice though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
There's a definite parallel, Stoner with his scaphoid injury and MM with his messed up shoulders.
I think Stoner's scaphoid was seriously injured in a 250cc crash, but maybe I'm wrong.
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March 11th, 2020, 02:02 PM   #79
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He seems to only really do that in practice though.

The excessive crashing, yes. The steady diet of multiple miracle saves (that nobody can duplicate) are still on the menu at races.

I think Stoner's scaphoid was seriously injured in a 250cc crash, but maybe I'm wrong.
Yes - it was initially injured in 2003. Certainly he was w Ducati when he re-injured it necessitating the surgeries. I remember that winter, everybody stressing out as to whether he would be okay to ride in the following season. That one injury is not central to my point. Just that in general, the stress of having to over-ride the bike burned him out. Ironically - the Honda was much easier to ride.
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March 11th, 2020, 06:10 PM   #80
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Marquez over riding the bike is what separates him from others.
The ability to force the bike in hard and over stress the front tyre is not something you'd expect to see disappear.
He has done it all the way through his open class time.

He doesn't appear too upset with how the bike has behaved and has done well regardless of how well others have been able to ride it.
The length of the contract just signed are not the actions of someone who is struggling mentally with motivation or drive.
Injury may stop him but there is not evidence of a change in approach yet. Crashing with a recently repaired shoulder is not someone unprepared to push hard as he has done all the way through.
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