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March 5th, 2020, 04:53 AM   #41
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For what it’s worth I don’t recall a time when Honda sucked as much as they do now outside of one rider.
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March 5th, 2020, 05:06 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
Can you explain what is wrong with their current strategy to me then?
I am simply posting evidence of its' success.

For it to be successful, for them to win individual and constructors titles, they are producing what is required.
A further 4 year contract seems ample evidence both manufacturer and rider are happy with the current arrangement.

There are all sorts of holes in your argument that Dani not winning a championship is proof they can't produce a bike that wins.
Not every rider is capable of winning the open class it is only a minority who do.
Dani had plenty of opportunity but couldn't do it. 3 teammates did. Marquez did it on debut on a bike you could argue was designed with Dani's input.
If it was the Honda why did he not go to another manufacturer? If the other manufacturers considered him a title dead set why weren't they offering him a contract he couldn't refuse?

Yes Marquez is very talented, yes he can ride the bike in a manner others cant.
Honda are aware that he is not forever but clearly they want him on their bike not other's.
I would argue they are confident in their strategy and happy not to be competing against him.
When he goes or can't ride they will deal with what arrives then.
As they have done after Spencer, Gardner, Doohan, Criville, Rossi, Stoner.
They have been there before and have a history of winning despite challenges.
I am sure they are aware of the challenges they will face.
I've explained it to you now 6 times. I can't be bothered to write what you refuse to acknowledge. All you ever do is introduce more irrelevancies and make rebuttals to things I've never implied.
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March 5th, 2020, 05:17 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
As I have said I go a bit both ways on this.

Honda can come up with a new chassis in a few weeks, and have in fact actually done so in the past.

I think engines are more problematic even for them, and Ducati seem to have an advantage with power and power delivery , cf the other thread. So I don’t think they are making the bike unrideable for their riders other than MM, but rather just pushing the boundaries of their engine to give MM the power and acceleration he needs to compete, no longer with a bespoke ECU and massive softwear engineering and technical staff expenditure to tame the engine. They doubtless will come to grips with the control ECU and go back to being level or better in that regard with the other manufacturers, in the meantime they have MM signed for 4 years more during which the softwear between his ears and what is connected to it, particularly his right wrist, can bridge the gap. I really don’t think they can make the bike more generally rideable at this point in time without losing out power-wise.
That's exactly what I've said. Sure they can whip up a chassis in nothing flat. But with all their money and their monolithic experience and high-paid engineers - they can't produce a bike on which Cal Crutchlow, Takaaki Nakagami or Alex Marquez can regularly compete with Petrucci, Miller and Dovisioso all on Ducatis, built by a smaller, less well funded company.

Without the insane brilliance of MM - Honda would be in the shitter points-wise.

Marquez will win championships - but his presence on the team relieves the engineers of the pressure to make a bike that can beat the Ducatis. Honda shows either unwillingness or inability to improve the product. Engineering-wise they are falling behind. They used to be much more innovative. The seem to have reached a place of innovative complacency.

Last edited by Keshav; March 5th, 2020 at 05:57 AM.
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March 5th, 2020, 07:05 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
That's exactly what I've said. Sure they can whip up a chassis in nothing flat. But with all their money and their monolithic experience and high-paid engineers - they can't produce a bike on which Cal Crutchlow, Takaaki Nakagami or Alex Marquez can regularly compete with Petrucci, Miller and Dovisioso all on Ducatis, built by a smaller, less well funded company.

Without the insane brilliance of MM - Honda would be in the shitter points-wise.

Marquez will win championships - but his presence on the team relieves the engineers of the pressure to make a bike that can beat the Ducatis. Honda shows either unwillingness or inability to improve the product. Engineering-wise they are falling behind. They used to be much more innovative. The seem to have reached a place of innovative complacency.
It is a complex situation imo.

There was probably a reason Honda threatened to withdraw if the control ECU came in, they may well have realised their engine might be pretty raw without Honda electronics. If they need to re-design the engine that is very costly in time and resources, and they are probably spending both big time, to say nothing of bulk cash, on their return to F1 as an engine supplier. There is also talk of Repsol withdrawing as a sponsor of HRC.

I don't know how things currently stand with VW-Audi, but they are bigger than Honda and can potentially at least fund Ducati well. The Marlboro sponsorship which somehow continues is also rumoured to be lucrative.

Last edited by michaelm; March 5th, 2020 at 07:08 AM.
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March 5th, 2020, 09:00 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
It is a complex situation imo.

There was probably a reason Honda threatened to withdraw if the control ECU came in, they may well have realised their engine might be pretty raw without Honda electronics. If they need to re-design the engine that is very costly in time and resources, and they are probably spending both big time, to say nothing of bulk cash, on their return to F1 as an engine supplier. There is also talk of Repsol withdrawing as a sponsor of HRC.

I don't know how things currently stand with VW-Audi, but they are bigger than Honda and can potentially at least fund Ducati well. The Marlboro sponsorship which somehow continues is also rumoured to be lucrative.
Again I agree. What started me on this discussion was Pov's allegation that HRC could at any time produce a bike on which riders other than MM could be competitive, which is an unsupportable fantasy professed by folks who buy into romantic ideas that power and money can accomplish anything regardless of hard reality right in front of their eyes; and then dream up illogical reasons to justify their unfounded beliefs. I think HRC may well possess the resources, but presently they seem to lack any inspiration, or ability to think out of the box.

Last edited by Keshav; March 5th, 2020 at 11:06 AM.
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March 5th, 2020, 12:56 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Again I agree. What started me on this discussion was Pov's allegation that HRC could at any time produce a bike on which riders other than MM could be competitive, which is an unsupportable fantasy professed by folks who buy into romantic ideas that power and money can accomplish anything regardless of hard reality right in front of their eyes; and then dream up illogical reasons to justify their unfounded beliefs. I think HRC may well possess the resources, but presently they seem to lack any inspiration, or ability to think out of the box.
And again why do they need to?
They just signed a 4 year contract with the guy who scored the record points haul on the unrideable pos and won 6 of the last 7 championships on it
Clearly they are intent on producing what he needs and when he is not there they will need to change.
Ducati for all their innovative rule stretching have not won the championship.
Gigi seemed to have a bit of envy for Honda's asset too.
https://www.crash.net/motogp/feature...target-my-life

Yes the Honda appears hard to ride but they are producing the goods and have extended their strategy for maintaining their position as the most successful motoGP manufacturer.

When we see Mav or Fab consistently beating them they may need to change earlier.
If we ever get a start to the bloody season.

Last edited by warthog1; March 5th, 2020 at 01:00 PM.
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March 5th, 2020, 01:10 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
And again why do they need to?
They just signed a 4 year contract with the guy who scored the record points haul on the unrideable pos and won 6 of the last 7 championships on it
Clearly they are intent on producing what he needs and when he is not there they will need to change.
Ducati for all their innovative rule stretching have not won the championship.
Gigi seemed to have a bit of envy for Honda's asset too.
https://www.crash.net/motogp/feature...target-my-life

Yes the Honda appears hard to ride but they are producing the goods and have extended their strategy for maintaining their position as the most successful motoGP manufacturer.

When we see Mav or Fab consistently beating them they may need to change earlier.
If we ever get a start to the bloody season.
If you have to ask . . .
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March 5th, 2020, 01:38 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
If you have to ask . . .
If you cant explain given the results....

I don't believe Honda is exclusively staffed by stupid people and incompetent engineers
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March 5th, 2020, 01:44 PM   #49
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If you cant explain given the results....

I don't believe Honda is exclusively staffed by stupid people and incompetent engineers
I can explain and have done. Either you're incapable of reading what was written or you simply like to amuse yourself by wasting other people's time.

Last edited by Keshav; March 5th, 2020 at 01:47 PM.
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March 5th, 2020, 02:14 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I can explain and have done. Either you're incapable of reading what was written or you simply like to amuse yourself by wasting other people's time.
Read the title of the thread.
A 4 year contract.
How many of them do you recall?
For the guy who has won 6 of the last 7 titles.
The runner up manufacturer was apparently also interested in his services.
What part of that behaviour, what part of the results, indicate Honda doesn't have a clue what they are doing?
They build the bike he needs, it is working for them and they have extended the contract as a result.
I fail to see what else they are expected to do?
He is getting the results he is going to be the primary focus whilst he is there and getting those results.
When that changes so will the focus.
Again they are the most successful manufacturer in the open class.
They have a long history of good results it doesn't follow that they have forgotten what to do, they are doing what they need to and the results are there to see.

Last edited by warthog1; March 5th, 2020 at 02:16 PM.
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