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March 3rd, 2020, 11:24 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
It’s like he said. When the time comes to build a bike that is not Marquez centric, they will do it in an overnight fashion. They have that capability. Up until now, the tires dictated a point and shoot style would win over the course of a season. If these new tires with better edge grip change the strategy to needing corner speed, Honda will have a bike prepared for 2021 that will do just that and Marc has proven he can be any type rider the technical regulations call for. I can see maybe one year out of the next 5 that Marquez doesn’t win the title.
Doesn't make any sense. Everybody looks at the RCV the way it is and says: Only Magic Marc can ride this insane bike on which all the other riders are struggling.

If it were so easy, why would Honda not presto-change-o build a bike that Cal and the others could use to bring more points to the constructor's championship?

I get why some folks believe that Honda big-money fixes everything at will, but if that were so, Repsol would have made damned sure that HRC made a bike Pedrosa could win championships on.
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Last edited by Keshav; March 3rd, 2020 at 03:10 PM.
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March 3rd, 2020, 04:55 PM   #32
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I think the point is who is going to beat MM on the same machine?
Dani had plenty of time on the Honda but was too small imo.
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/90...size-adversity
But hey they didn't make the bike suit JL overnight.
As good as he is though, it is hard to see him beating MM on the same machine.
You could argue he saw it that way too, or just they were not going to give him the same degree of input.
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March 4th, 2020, 01:41 AM   #33
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Its good that Marc Marquez has signed a 4 year desl with HRC.
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March 4th, 2020, 04:22 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
I think the point is who is going to beat MM on the same machine?
Dani had plenty of time on the Honda but was too small imo.
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/90...size-adversity
But hey they didn't make the bike suit JL overnight.
As good as he is though, it is hard to see him beating MM on the same machine.
You could argue he saw it that way too, or just they were not going to give him the same degree of input.
You're completely bypassing the import of the dialog. It's not about Marc per se. It's about whether HRC has the will or the capacity to build a rider friendly bike.

News flash! Dani is small!. That's been an a talked-to-death topic since 2006. Much was made about how HRC miniaturized the bike for 2007 because Repsol used their influence to push development of the bike to specifically to suit Pedrosa who was already insanely popular in Spain (and elsewhere) - Repsol badly wanted a Spanish MotoGp champion.

And yet despite Honda's alleged ability to magically produce a suitable bike tailored to a specific rider - they clearly weren't able to do so; which gives lie to the fan-boy belief that HRC has tailor made the current bike to suit Marquez - despite all the obvious signs of how much he (brilliantly) struggles with the bike, and it's faithless front end that's thrown him down the road countless times, much the way Stoner did with the wild and woolly Ducati.

People need to get real. It's not like fashion designers who hire high-profile celebrities to wear their clothing for publicity and marketing. HRC are not in the fashion business.

HRC and Repsol didn't hire MM so they could make him an artisanal Marquez signature motorcycle. They hired him because he was the candidate with the greatest capacity to ride around the bike's deficiencies.

Last edited by Keshav; March 4th, 2020 at 06:49 AM.
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March 4th, 2020, 01:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
You're completely bypassing the import of the dialog. It's not about Marc per se. It's about whether HRC has the will or the capacity to build a rider friendly bike.
They are the most successful factory in the premier class by a significant margin. There is no question they can make a fast bike. I care little about the term "rider friendly" and less that you assert this is what the discussion is about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
News flash! Dani is small!. That's been an a talked-to-death topic since 2006. Much was made about how HRC miniaturized the bike for 2007 because Repsol used their influence to push development of the bike to specifically to suit Pedrosa who was already insanely popular in Spain (and elsewhere) - Repsol badly wanted a Spanish MotoGp champion.

And yet despite Honda's alleged ability to magically produce a suitable bike tailored to a specific rider - they clearly weren't able to do so; which gives lie to the fan-boy belief that HRC has tailor made the current bike to suit Marquez - despite all the obvious signs of how much he (brilliantly) struggles with the bike, and it's faithless front end that's thrown him down the road countless times, much the way Stoner did with the wild and woolly Ducati.

I was responding to this passage of your post;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I get why some folks believe that Honda big-money fixes everything at will, but if that were so, Repsol would have made damned sure that HRC made a bike Pedrosa could win championships on
Given the fact he has been on the same team mate at Honda to 3 premier class WCs in Hayden, Stoner and Marquez I find that a tenuous point to grasp in order to claim Honda cannot build a successful bike given his size and weight on such a machine. Again they are the most successful manufacturer in the class


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
People need to get real. It's not like fashion designers who hire high-profile celebrities to wear their clothing for publicity and marketing. HRC are not in the fashion business.

HRC and Repsol didn't hire MM so they could make him an artisanal Marquez signature motorcycle. They hired him because he was the candidate with the greatest capacity to ride around the bike's deficiencies.

Interesting way to put it. He is fast. He can do stuff on a bike others can't. Seems to enable him to win bike races. That is why he is hired by Honda and why he has just been signed to a four year contract.
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March 4th, 2020, 02:23 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
They are the most successful factory in the premier class by a significant margin. There is no question they can make a fast bike. I care little about the term "rider friendly" and less that you assert this is what the discussion is about.


Yes - we know Honda can make a fast bike. Not news. Whether YOU care about rider friendly bikes is wholly irrelevant. We weren't discussing what does and doesn't make YOU happy. It's a question of all the other current Honda riders and how badly they are faring these last few years


I was responding to this passage of your post;

And I was responding to you trying to explain away Honda's inability to build a championship winning bike for Pedrosa, by telling us Dani is small, which while true, is rather pedantic and not an earth shattering revelation around these parts. Povol - was early on - stating in essence that HRC could make a bike that handles much better at the drop of a hat, and my rejoinder was, Pedrosa was riding it for more than a decade and never won a championship, which empirically gives lie to that statement.


Given the fact he has been on the same team mate at Honda to 3 premier class WCs in Hayden, Stoner and Marquez I find that a tenuous point to grasp in order to claim Honda cannot build a successful bike given his size and weight on such a machine. Again they are the most successful manufacturer in the class


It's not "tenous". The fact of Hayden's win, was considered by Honda to be a fluke. He was just signed on as a parts monkey for Pedrosa who Repsol was banking on to be the next world champion. Honda made it very clear that their appreciation for Hayden was strictly lip service. Clearer still in 2007 when Honda shrank the bike thinking it would better suit Pedrosa. The point is, Honda's engineers despite all the money they have behind them, weren't able to build the bike that Repsol wanted. This was well documented at the time.


Interesting way to put it. He is fast. He can do stuff on a bike others can't. Seems to enable him to win bike races. That is why he is hired by Honda and why he has just been signed to a four year contract.

The facts fit. HRC brought in Stoner because he was willing to burn himself out riding around the idiosyncracies of the Ducati, figuring if he could win on that bike that handled like shite (especially once the one-tire rule was implemented) he'd be a cinch to win on the Honda which was at the time, handling much better than the Ducati.
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March 4th, 2020, 04:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Yes - we know Honda can make a fast bike. Not news. Whether YOU care about rider friendly bikes is wholly irrelevant. We weren't discussing what does and doesn't make YOU happy. It's a question of all the other current Honda riders and how badly they are faring these last few years
MM explained it as I posted earlier "You need to know if you want an easier bike or a faster bike. I don't care if the bike is difficult as long as it's faster."
https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/ne...w/4559277/amp/
Again what part of the strategy is not working for Honda?
Individual and constructors title again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
And I was responding to you trying to explain away Honda's inability to build a championship winning bike for Pedrosa, by telling us Dani is small, which while true, is rather pedantic and not an earth shattering revelation around these parts. Povol - was early on - stating in essence that HRC could make a bike that handles much better at the drop of a hat, and my rejoinder was, Pedrosa was riding it for more than a decade and never won a championship, which empirically gives lie to that statement.
Pedrosa was there for 13 years. 3 teammates won the title whilst he was there. They won 7 titles in total. His bigger, stronger teammates were better able to handle a 280 hp m/cycle that weighs 157kg. The evidence is there. They won the titles, he didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post

The facts fit
. HRC brought in Stoner because he was willing to burn himself out riding around the idiosyncracies of the Ducati, figuring if he could win on that bike that handled like shite (especially once the one-tire rule was implemented) he'd be a cinch to win on the Honda which was at the time, handling much better than the Ducati.
Agree the facts fit. Honda won the title more than half the time Pedrosa was there. Pedrosa won none.
The current no1 rider has won 6 title in 7 attempts and scored the all time points record last season. Honda and he have been very successful and they clearly see the partnership as worth extending.
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March 4th, 2020, 06:27 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warthog1 View Post
MM explained it as I posted earlier "You need to know if you want an easier bike or a faster bike. I don't care if the bike is difficult as long as it's faster."
https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/ne...w/4559277/amp/
Again what part of the strategy is not working for Honda?
Individual and constructors title again.

The part where no other rider can do shit with the same bike. The whole discussion between myself and Povol was whether or not Honda could in fact make a bike that handles well for other riders. It was never - can they win a championship with Marquez on the team. That was never in doubt; the problem being Honda is not winning because they have the best bike. They're winning on a bike that handles like shit because they have a freakishly talented rider. And if and when he either gets too injured to ride or decides to retire, they will be caught with their pants down, because riders like Stoner or Marquez don't come along every day. Their strategy is very short-sighted. Unlike Ducati who aren't so narrowly focused on speed, but who are also proving to be much more innovative with Gigi at the helm.


Pedrosa was there for 13 years. 3 teammates won the title whilst he was there. They won 7 titles in total. His bigger, stronger teammates were better able to handle a 280 hp m/cycle that weighs 157kg. The evidence is there. They won the titles, he didn't.

Again - you muddy the water by stepping around and avoiding a rebuttal of what it is I actually was making a point about, which is the fallacy that Honda can spend their way into making a bike suitable to any rider. Pedrosa is empirical proof of that.

And for a company as big and well funded as Honda, 6 years without wins - is a lot of years.




Agree the facts fit. Honda won the title more than half the time Pedrosa was there. Pedrosa won none.
The current no1 rider has won 6 title in 7 attempts and scored the all time points record last season. Honda and he have been very successful and they clearly see the partnership as worth extending.
Never said they weren't winning championships. Why you keep insisting on saying this as if I'd ever denied this is beyond me. That was never my contention.
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March 4th, 2020, 09:09 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Never said they weren't winning championships. Why you keep insisting on saying this as if I'd ever denied this is beyond me. That was never my contention.
Can you explain what is wrong with their current strategy to me then?
I am simply posting evidence of its' success.

For it to be successful, for them to win individual and constructors titles, they are producing what is required.
A further 4 year contract seems ample evidence both manufacturer and rider are happy with the current arrangement.

There are all sorts of holes in your argument that Dani not winning a championship is proof they can't produce a bike that wins.
Not every rider is capable of winning the open class it is only a minority who do.
Dani had plenty of opportunity but couldn't do it. 3 teammates did. Marquez did it on debut on a bike you could argue was designed with Dani's input.
If it was the Honda why did he not go to another manufacturer? If the other manufacturers considered him a title dead set why weren't they offering him a contract he couldn't refuse?

Yes Marquez is very talented, yes he can ride the bike in a manner others cant.
Honda are aware that he is not forever but clearly they want him on their bike not other's.
I would argue they are confident in their strategy and happy not to be competing against him.
When he goes or can't ride they will deal with what arrives then.
As they have done after Spencer, Gardner, Doohan, Criville, Rossi, Stoner.
They have been there before and have a history of winning despite challenges.
I am sure they are aware of the challenges they will face.

Last edited by warthog1; March 4th, 2020 at 10:05 PM.
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March 4th, 2020, 10:44 PM   #40
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As I have said I go a bit both ways on this.

Honda can come up with a new chassis in a few weeks, and have in fact actually done so in the past.

I think engines are more problematic even for them, and Ducati seem to have an advantage with power and power delivery, cf the other thread. So I don’t think they are making the bike unrideable for their riders other than MM, but rather just pushing the boundaries of their engine to give MM the power and acceleration he needs to compete, no longer with a bespoke ECU and massive softwear engineering/technical staff expenditure to tame the engine. They doubtless will come to grips with the control ECU and go back to being level or better in that regard with the other manufacturers, in the meantime they have MM signed for 4 years more during which the softwear between his ears and what is connected to it, particularly his right wrist, can bridge the gap. I really don’t think they can make the bike more generally rideable at this point in time without losing out power-wise.

Last edited by michaelm; March 5th, 2020 at 05:13 AM.
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