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November 23rd, 2019, 11:56 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Knowing Honda, I'd venture the RCV has largely been developed despite Marquez. Undoubtedly they've made refinements here and there; tho the extra HP this year was a huge improvement. Gut feeling says the dynamic between HRC and Marquez is not dissimilar to that of Stoner when he was a Ducati: ie - Stoner using his immense talent to ride around issues Ducati was unable or unwilling to address. I don't think anyone would argue that Marquez isn't doing the same on the RCV; especially given the shite results of the other Honda riders.

As to speculation about Marquez winning on the M1, I think he might be able to pull it off; but certainly not in the crushingly dominant fashion we're all used to now. True, the M1 has been under-powered these last few seasons, but I don't buy the idea that Marquez's dramatic saves are the product of superior electronics, in large because all teams are using the standardize Marelli package and let's face it, we don't see any other Honda rider making those kind of saves. That's straight out, his natural talent. Also, no reason to think Marquez would not be able to transfer his genius for utilizing the power and turnability of the Honda to and apply it to the more stable, better handling Yamaha. We all recall seeing Rossi (in his prime) use race craft to beat Stoner on several occasions, despite the Ducati's superior power. The key thing here is adaptability and Stoner had it. Marquez I believe, has it in droves. And lastly (just for the hell of it) if Marquez went to Yamaha, he would very likely win another championship because, there's simply nobody out there (at this point) able to duplicate what he does on that empty Honda seat should he leave it behind.
The other Honda riders are getting poor results because there isn't anyone that rides in a similar fashion to Marquez, so once Honda began implementing changes to the RCV to support MM, their other riders were doomed. Marc is very hard on the front tire... he feels the limit and often goes beyond it and saves the slide with his knee/elbow. There isn't anyone who can do that the way he can and HRC has assisted him achieve this with the overall balance of the bike and his setup.

The M1 on the otherhand does NOT respond well with a "crossed up, back it in style" corner entry. It has been developed for maximum speed with both wheels in line... something Lorenzo has mastered but that's also why Lorenzo couldn't come to grips on the RCV designed for Marc's style. Marc may struggle to adapt to a bike like the M1 since it snaps violently if you let the rear end come up under braking and set it down without it being lined up with the front (Marc routinely does that with the RCV).

Marc doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that he can adapt and win on any bike on the grid, any small failure to adapt can cost tenths per lap and at this level that's enough to struggle to get on the podium.
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November 23rd, 2019, 01:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
The other Honda riders are getting poor results because there isn't anyone that rides in a similar fashion to Marquez, so once Honda began implementing changes to the RCV to support MM, their other riders were doomed. Marc is very hard on the front tire... he feels the limit and often goes beyond it and saves the slide with his knee/elbow. There isn't anyone who can do that the way he can and HRC has assisted him achieve this with the overall balance of the bike and his setup.

The M1 on the otherhand does NOT respond well with a "crossed up, back it in style" corner entry. It has been developed for maximum speed with both wheels in line... something Lorenzo has mastered but that's also why Lorenzo couldn't come to grips on the RCV designed for Marc's style. Marc may struggle to adapt to a bike like the M1 since it snaps violently if you let the rear end come up under braking and set it down without it being lined up with the front (Marc routinely does that with the RCV).

Marc doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that he can adapt and win on any bike on the grid, any small failure to adapt can cost tenths per lap and at this level that's enough to struggle to get on the podium.
1. True - which supports what I said, that being the Honda's greater power but lack of rider friendliness means Marquez would have no threat from that quarter.

2. You are assuming that Marquez can only be competitive because of the way he uses the front end, but in reality he does that because he had to adapt to the bike. The proposition that Marquez could dominate other Yamaha riders whilst on a Yamaha is not a faith-based belief. Marquez demonstrated his ability to beat other riders on near identical equipment when he was in Moto 2. And since then, he's only gotten better.
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November 23rd, 2019, 02:33 PM   #23
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1. True - which supports what I said, that being the Honda's greater power but lack of rider friendliness means Marquez would have no threat from that quarter.

2. You are assuming that Marquez can only be competitive because of the way he uses the front end, but in reality he does that because he had to adapt to the bike. The proposition that Marquez could dominate other Yamaha riders whilst on a Yamaha is not a faith-based belief. Marquez demonstrated his ability to beat other riders on near identical equipment when he was in Moto 2. And since then, he's only gotten better.
So did Zarco and other Moto2 champions. That does not demonstrate the ability to adapt to the different GP bikes.

Last edited by moto vudu; November 23rd, 2019 at 02:48 PM.
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November 23rd, 2019, 02:50 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
The other Honda riders are getting poor results because there isn't anyone that rides in a similar fashion to Marquez, so once Honda began implementing changes to the RCV to support MM, their other riders were doomed. Marc is very hard on the front tire... he feels the limit and often goes beyond it and saves the slide with his knee/elbow. There isn't anyone who can do that the way he can and HRC has assisted him achieve this with the overall balance of the bike and his setup.

The M1 on the otherhand does NOT respond well with a "crossed up, back it in style" corner entry. It has been developed for maximum speed with both wheels in line... something Lorenzo has mastered but that's also why Lorenzo couldn't come to grips on the RCV designed for Marc's style. Marc may struggle to adapt to a bike like the M1 since it snaps violently if you let the rear end come up under braking and set it down without it being lined up with the front (Marc routinely does that with the RCV).

Marc doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that he can adapt and win on any bike on the grid, any small failure to adapt can cost tenths per lap and at this level that's enough to struggle to get on the podium.
These are all matters of opinion, but yours more so (imo). Why is it a given that at age 25 MM can only ride the way he rides the Honda currently ?.

As both Keshav and I have said, he dominated the field in moto 2 on a completely different bike with a spec engine which while a Honda had nothing to do with the MotoGP engine, and there is a considerable history of Honda following an engineering philosophy regardless of their riders, including their previous most successful ever rider. Honda are also rather constrained by the current rules, with a control tire, control ECU, fuel limitation etc. I consider it far more likely that as did Ducati in 2007 they have mainly made the bike as potentially fast as they can and hoped that MM can ride it (no doubt also what MM wanted particularly since he has said so), with less capacity to tame it by electronic means now there is a control ECU. For Ducati in 2007 it was (again imo) mostly pure luck that the guy they hired as a one year placeholder/seat warmer could ride their bike. When HRC had a bike which was more generally rideable in 2014 MM won every race, mostly fairly handily, until he clinched the title.

The actual real world evidence is that MM has been able to ride every bike he has encountered, including bikes in the spec moto 3 and moto 2 series which could hardly be more conventional and a 2014 Honda on which other riders could also prosper and on which he had no need for the current laws of physics defying saves. If you want to put a theoretical knock on him perhaps he lacks as a developer of bikes, given that the 2014 bike was probably mainly a product of Pedrosa +/- Stoner. That bike also had a bespoke ECU however, which HRC themselves presumably considered fairly important given they threatened to withdraw from the sport if a control ECU was mandated. This year’s bike was also produced at a time when Ducati had been the major threat, with a power/straight line advantage which it doesn’t take much imagination to suspect the Honda engineers considered to impugn their honour, and it is quite likely that they have had to go fairly radical with the engine to match Ducati, who as I understand it have an engineering advantage in a fuel economy formula because of the intrinsic greater efficiency of the Desmo valve gear.

Last edited by michaelm; November 23rd, 2019 at 10:55 PM.
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November 23rd, 2019, 04:10 PM   #25
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So did Zarco and other Moto2 champions. That does not demonstrate the ability to adapt to the different GP bikes.
You make the point for the opposing view. He could dominate riding a type of bike on which Zarco who on all evidence is suited to the Yamaha but not so much by at least one more radical bike could win championships.
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November 24th, 2019, 04:57 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
So did Zarco and other Moto2 champions. That does not demonstrate the ability to adapt to the different GP bikes.
Hmmm - forgot to hit the reply button last night.

It's true that Zarco for instance ended one season with more points than were accumulated in any given season. But to my recollection Marquez's wins were by much greater margins time-wise. In the event, Marquez has clearly surpassed Zarco or any other of his contemporaries. When I say adapt, BTW I'm referring to his ability to ride around the design deficiencies in whichever bike he's riding. I think it's a mistake to believe he would not be able to apply that ability to a different set of problems on a different bike.
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November 24th, 2019, 05:16 AM   #27
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Hmmm - forgot to hit the reply button last night.

It's true that Zarco for instance ended one season with more points than were accumulated in any given season. But to my recollection Marquez's wins were by much greater margins time-wise. In the event, Marquez has clearly surpassed Zarco or any other of his contemporaries. When I say adapt, BTW I'm referring to his ability to ride around the design deficiencies in whichever bike he's riding. I think it's a mistake to believe he would not be able to apply that ability to a different set of problems on a different bike.
MM was also 19 while Zarco was 25, and I very definitely wasn't a fan of 18 and 19 year old MM and his team/pit crew. It is vaguely possible MM had more potential to improve though.
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November 24th, 2019, 07:21 AM   #28
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MM was also 19 while Zarco was 25, and I very definitely wasn't a fan of 18 and 19 year old MM and his team/pit crew. It is vaguely possible MM had more potential to improve though.
Yah think?
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November 24th, 2019, 11:54 AM   #29
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Imo, Marky Mark is a complete freak of nature who can ride around whatever shit is thrown at him.Doohan and Rainey and yes Rossi when he moved to Yamaha, didnt have the best bike out there when they were at the top of thier game.

Ill just add, im sad.to see.Jorge retire, the best out there for a few years. Glad to see.him walk away before the injuries got.worse.

Hello again folks!
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November 24th, 2019, 12:13 PM   #30
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Imo, Marky Mark is a complete freak of nature who can ride around whatever shit is thrown at him.Doohan and Rainey and yes Rossi when he moved to Yamaha, didnt have the best bike out there when they were at the top of thier game.

Ill just add, im sad.to see.Jorge retire, the best out there for a few years. Glad to see.him walk away before the injuries got.worse.

Hello again folks!
The 2011 Ducati like the 2010 bike before it was a total pig, and Rossi basically decided he wasn’t going to go to the edge of crashing it in every corner, which was Stoner’s basic method on the thing to finish 5th or 6th with the improvement of the other bikes. I have to admit as a Stoner partisan to experiencing some schadenfreude with much of what Stoner had been criticised/vilified for, in regard to his riding anyway, and the assessments of Rossi and most others who were assessing matters from an external perspective, and Ducati themselves, being proven wrong though.

Last edited by michaelm; November 24th, 2019 at 11:27 PM.
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