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November 21st, 2019, 07:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by 320Dave View Post
Good ole blame the bike excuse, nice.

Not even 2020 GP yet ahahahhaa
You can't have it both ways. Why develop the bikes then and why ride for a particular team over the other?? All the bikes aren't equal. We know that, don't we?

We have watched the races all year and there is ample evidence on the track, what the general characteristics of the front-running bikes are, i.e., strengths and weaknesses.
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November 21st, 2019, 07:57 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
You can't have it both ways. Why develop the bikes then and why ride for a particular team over the other?? All the bikes aren't equal. We know that, don't we?

We have watched the races all year and there is ample evidence on the track, what the general characteristics of the front-running bikes are, i.e., strengths and weaknesses.

Top speed an acceleration is important but so is the rest and the Yammy is clearly the most leveled out bike, with someone fast enough on it they can challenge Marc and Honda.

That story of Yamaha dropping off the competition half way through because they don't develop is pure BS.

look at them now clawing back on the Ducs etc
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November 21st, 2019, 12:00 PM   #13
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Bike is great over a lap with FQ in general and MV on occasion.
What is lacking with those two over the distance is racecraft.
Specifically, FQ is doing what many other new riders is the top class have done with the horsepower: enjoy it and go as fast as you can......until the tires go. He also would do well to not show all his cards right away. I suspect he will learn how to do this.
Maverick, on the other hand has had plenty of time to learn all this and has for the most part. I think Mav’s main problem is tentative passing. He just doesn’t seem to be able to do it when he needs to and gets mired in midfield when he can’t make a good start.
Bring on the next season and we’ll see.
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November 21st, 2019, 05:27 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
You can't have it both ways. Why develop the bikes then and why ride for a particular team over the other?? All the bikes aren't equal. We know that, don't we?

We have watched the races all year and there is ample evidence on the track, what the general characteristics of the front-running bikes are, i.e., strengths and weaknesses.
Sure, of course it would be better for all their riders if Yamaha had more top speed on the straights, but this might require something fairly drastic like abandoning the I 4 engine architecture they have employed for all of their 50 odd year history in premier class gp bike racing, and is not something they can just do overnight this off-season. Their problem is really MM rather than their deficit on the straights in any case, they are thrashing the Hondas other than that ridden by MM despite the straight line deficiency, and the trade-offs for what gives the Honda its advantages in MM's hands more than likely are what make it unrideable by others. Very 2007 imo.

Zarco is being pilloried for having a similar view essentially of KTM's traditional trellis frame chassis. Obviously VR has a hugely greater record of achievement particularly with Yamaha to stand on in criticising them, but I am not sure how far that should go 10 years after his last title when he can't beat the other Yamaha riders currently, who are faster than anyone except MM who beat them on race-craft rather than outright pace in several races in the most recent season anyway. I am fairly confident if you put him on a factory Yamaha and anyone you care to choose on the HRC bike with the possible exception of peak Casey Stoner that MM would win the 2020 title.

Last edited by michaelm; November 21st, 2019 at 11:49 PM.
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November 22nd, 2019, 01:07 AM   #15
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Final two hours of day two testing is worth it just to listen to Neil Spalding.
Agree, imo they don't have him on as a guest commentator enough throughout the season.
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November 22nd, 2019, 03:41 PM   #16
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Sure, of course it would be better for all their riders if Yamaha had more top speed on the straights, but this might require something fairly drastic like abandoning the I 4 engine architecture they have employed for all of their 50 odd year history in premier class gp bike racing, and is not something they can just do overnight this off-season. Their problem is really MM rather than their deficit on the straights in any case, they are thrashing the Hondas other than that ridden by MM despite the straight line deficiency, and the trade-offs for what gives the Honda its advantages in MM's hands more than likely are what make it unrideable by others. Very 2007 imo.

Zarco is being pilloried for having a similar view essentially of KTM's traditional trellis frame chassis. Obviously VR has a hugely greater record of achievement particularly with Yamaha to stand on in criticising them, but I am not sure how far that should go 10 years after his last title when he can't beat the other Yamaha riders currently, who are faster than anyone except MM who beat them on race-craft rather than outright pace in several races in the most recent season anyway. I am fairly confident if you put him on a factory Yamaha and anyone you care to choose on the HRC bike with the possible exception of peak Casey Stoner that MM would win the 2020 title.
I would be willing to stake a huge bet in support of that notion. It's the Yamahas that have been the bikes to most often finish ahead of or just behind MM on the Honda. I seriously doubt there's any other rider on the grid that could get the same performance out of that Honda as MM does.
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November 23rd, 2019, 02:00 AM   #17
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The M1 hasn't been developed for Marquez... he wouldn't be all that dominate on it. The M1's longer wheelbase and relatively poor electronics package wouldn't allow Marquez to get away with the same things he can on the RCV. I don't think Marquez would win a championship on the M1 unless Yamaha radically changed the bike to suit Marquez' style. Marquez championships have come while riding for the most dominate GP team with the deepest pockets to spend on developing specifically for him. He's a great talent, but the support he has received from HRC has been HUGE and he will have to prove he can still win without receiving the best support out of every rider on the grid.
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Last edited by moto vudu; November 23rd, 2019 at 02:02 AM.
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November 23rd, 2019, 04:06 AM   #18
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The M1 hasn't been developed for Marquez... he wouldn't be all that dominate on it. The M1's longer wheelbase and relatively poor electronics package wouldn't allow Marquez to get away with the same things he can on the RCV. I don't think Marquez would win a championship on the M1 unless Yamaha radically changed the bike to suit Marquez' style. Marquez championships have come while riding for the most dominate GP team with the deepest pockets to spend on developing specifically for him. He's a great talent, but the support he has received from HRC has been HUGE and he will have to prove he can still win without receiving the best support out of every rider on the grid.
I didn’t say he would dominate on a Yamaha, just that I think he would quite likely win the title. I am fairly certain that he wouldn’t be beaten by anyone on a Honda at the least. He is currently similar to Valentino Rossi before the Ducati adventure ie dominant at least eventually on every bike he has encountered. Sure some bike might prove to be his Achilles’ heel as the Ducati did for VR but I don’t really see why it would be the decidedly non radical Yamaha, and I think he deserves the assumption at this stage until proven otherwise that he could ride any bike. He could carve through the field from the back of the grid in moto 2 in his championship season on a bike with a spec engine.
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November 23rd, 2019, 05:11 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
The M1 hasn't been developed for Marquez... he wouldn't be all that dominate on it. The M1's longer wheelbase and relatively poor electronics package wouldn't allow Marquez to get away with the same things he can on the RCV. I don't think Marquez would win a championship on the M1 unless Yamaha radically changed the bike to suit Marquez' style. Marquez championships have come while riding for the most dominate GP team with the deepest pockets to spend on developing specifically for him. He's a great talent, but the support he has received from HRC has been HUGE and he will have to prove he can still win without receiving the best support out of every rider on the grid.
Knowing Honda, I'd venture the RCV has largely been developed despite Marquez. Undoubtedly they've made refinements here and there; tho the extra HP this year was a huge improvement. Gut feeling says the dynamic between HRC and Marquez is not dissimilar to that of Stoner when he was a Ducati: ie - Stoner using his immense talent to ride around issues Ducati was unable or unwilling to address. I don't think anyone would argue that Marquez isn't doing the same on the RCV; especially given the shite results of the other Honda riders.

As to speculation about Marquez winning on the M1, I think he might be able to pull it off; but certainly not in the crushingly dominant fashion we're all used to now. True, the M1 has been under-powered these last few seasons, but I don't buy the idea that Marquez's dramatic saves are the product of superior electronics, in large because all teams are using the standardize Marelli package and let's face it, we don't see any other Honda rider making those kind of saves. That's straight out, his natural talent. Also, no reason to think Marquez would not be able to transfer his genius for utilizing the power and turnability of the Honda to and apply it to the more stable, better handling Yamaha. We all recall seeing Rossi (in his prime) use race craft to beat Stoner on several occasions, despite the Ducati's superior power. The key thing here is adaptability and Stoner had it. Marquez I believe, has it in droves. And lastly (just for the hell of it) if Marquez went to Yamaha, he would very likely win another championship because, there's simply nobody out there (at this point) able to duplicate what he does on that empty Honda seat should he leave it behind.

Last edited by Keshav; November 23rd, 2019 at 08:55 AM.
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November 23rd, 2019, 05:30 AM   #20
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Knowing Honda, I'd venture the RCV has largely been developed despite Marquez. Undoubtedly they've made refinements here and there; tho the extra HP this year was a huge improvement. Gut feeling says the dynamic between HRC and Marquez is not dissimilar to that of Stoner when he was a Ducati: ie - Stoner using his immense talent to ride around issues Ducati was unable or unwilling to address. I don't think anyone would argue that Marquez isn't doing the same on the RCV; especially given the shite results of the other Honda riders.

As to speculation about Marquez winning on the M1, I think he might be able to pull it off; but certainly not in the crushingly dominant fashion we're all used to now. True, the M1 has been under-powered these last few seasons, but I don't buy the idea that Marquez's dramatic saves are the product of superior electronics, in large because all teams are using Marelli package and let's face it, we don't see any other Honda rider making those kind of saves. That's straight out, his natural talent. Also, no reason to think Marquez would not be able to transfer his genius for utilizing the power and turnability of the Honda to and apply it to the more stable, better handling Yamaha. We all recall seeing Rossi (in his prime) use race craft to beat Stoner on several occasions, despite the Ducati's superior power. The key thing here is adaptability and Stoner had it. Marquez I believe, has it in droves. And lastly (just for the hell of it) if Marquez went to Yamaha, he would very likely win another championship because, there's simply nobody out there (at this point) able to duplicate what he does on that empty Honda seat should he leave it behind.
We concur.
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