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August 19th, 2019, 04:53 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I am over the argument as well, and pretty much over the forum like many before me.

It would seem we are back, in the 12th season after the 2007 season. to riders having unappealing personalities whatever their quality as actual riders. I doubtless have many faults, but logical inconsistency is not prominent among them.
Let me see if I understand your logical consistency correctly, Mike.

It seems, in a general sense, that you are upset with the fact that top tier athletes become celebrities and that part of celebrity is a cult of personality.

This simple fact of life bothers you so much that you abandon objectivity and stake the untenable position that anyone who vaguely considers talent AND personality in their consideration of an athlete's overall impact on their sport is so unfailingly wrong that you are prepared to storm off in protest.

Uhm, OK.
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August 19th, 2019, 06:09 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick D View Post
Let me see if I understand your logical consistency correctly, Mike.

It seems, in a general sense, that you are upset with the fact that top tier athletes become celebrities and that part of celebrity is a cult of personality.

This simple fact of life bothers you so much that you abandon objectivity and stake the untenable position that anyone who vaguely considers talent AND personality in their consideration of an athlete's overall impact on their sport is so unfailingly wrong that you are prepared to storm off in protest.

Uhm, OK.
Hey Mick - as always good to see you here and about. Check your PM box/
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August 26th, 2019, 09:14 AM   #83
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the JLo era has come and gone, his riding style does not fit the premis that most Motogp engineers are designing their bikes around. though I am a little surprised to hear reports that he is missed at Ducati, not sure how much truth is behind that.

Good for Miller, I think he made the right choice to stay with Ducati, rather then a factory deal with KTM.
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August 26th, 2019, 11:22 AM   #84
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the JLo era has come and gone, his riding style does not fit the premis that most Motogp engineers are designing their bikes around. though I am a little surprised to hear reports that he is missed at Ducati, not sure how much truth is behind that.

Good for Miller, I think he made the right choice to stay with Ducati, rather then a factory deal with KTM.
JLo was quite potent with the Ducati just before he left. I don't think what you're saying is true.
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August 26th, 2019, 11:54 AM   #85
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JLo was quite potent with the Ducati just before he left. I don't think what you're saying is true.
he had his moments with Ducati, the factory also went all out trying to build a bike that would fit his riding style, and when things finally started looking good for the team, he was already on his way out...My point is I don't see JLo winning another championship.
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August 26th, 2019, 12:37 PM   #86
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he had his moments with Ducati, the factory also went all out trying to build a bike that would fit his riding style, and when things finally started looking good for the team, he was already on his way out...My point is I don't see JLo winning another championship.
Kind of goes without saying. It's no smear on Lorenzo. Everybody has their time. His time for championships is gone.

Last edited by Keshav; August 26th, 2019 at 12:53 PM.
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August 26th, 2019, 06:36 PM   #87
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Let me see if I understand your logical consistency correctly, Mike.

It seems, in a general sense, that you are upset with the fact that top tier athletes become celebrities and that part of celebrity is a cult of personality.

This simple fact of life bothers you so much that you abandon objectivity and stake the untenable position that anyone who vaguely considers talent AND personality in their consideration of an athlete's overall impact on their sport is so unfailingly wrong that you are prepared to storm off in protest.

Uhm, OK.
I am nothing if not logically consistent, to my detriment at times in real life.

As I kept saying I don’t have a problem with people not liking his personality. I don’t like Rossi’s but acknowledge his achievements and have never wished to see him crash or suffer injuries.

My problem was with Jorge, a top 10 rider all time but doubtless now in decline, being mocked for falling off a bike everyone falls off (including a certain rider who is very far from in decline to the extent that other rider’s own phenomenal career may be under some threat of an early conclusion), particularly while he was out injured after such a fall from which a return was uncertain, and from which a successful return is still uncertain.

I also think Dovi fans have gone overboard with the anti-Jorge stuff, Jorge has come from a hard school where team-mates are concerned and didn’t actually cost Dovi a championship, an implication which sometimes seems to be underlying. Some seem to see parallels with Nicky where Dovi is concerned, I as an acknowledged Stoner fanboy see parallels between Stoner and Jorge, and appreciate their mutual respect.
Gaz, Mick D and Aw Mang like this.

Last edited by michaelm; August 26th, 2019 at 11:28 PM.
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August 26th, 2019, 10:38 PM   #88
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Hi Michael. Maybe I misunderstood your posts, but it seemed to me that you were advocating evaluating a Motogp rider by on-track exploits only (which may have merits in certain, limited, circumstances), rather than judging the rider in their entirety. Which, to me, seems counter to logic.
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August 27th, 2019, 03:25 AM   #89
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Quote:
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Hi Michael. Maybe I misunderstood your posts, but it seemed to me that you were advocating evaluating a Motogp rider by on-track exploits only (which may have merits in certain, limited, circumstances), rather than judging the rider in their entirety. Which, to me, seems counter to logic.
I spent years on here arguing for Stoner’s quality as a rider in the face of his personality being derided by Rossi fans, they being very much in the majority back in the day on here of course, which seemed to extend to the quality of his riding not being recognised, and consider myself to be in fact practising logical consistency in defending Jorge similarly.

I obviously didn’t express myself sufficiently clearly, but everyone or anyone being a fan of Jorge’s is a different matter which I absolutely don’t require. My issue was with his quality as a rider being as I saw it derided, in what looks very much like the twilight of his career, particularly when injured, which I believe he doesn’t deserve given his achievements and his unrelenting toughness and effort over his career. I think Casey came to admire him despite initially not being a fan for the same reason I did, that he absolutely didn’t quit when defending his title against Casey in 2011, losing the finger or whatever searching for something in practice with which he could beat Casey despite his cause being well nigh hopeless, and as I believe was the case with Stoner was sad he didn’t get to go down fighting in the actual race. He also since Motegi 2010 has not to my knowledge asked for or expected any concessions from anyone, as opposed to one former team-mate, and has been a fair racer imo, in the premier class at least.

Last edited by michaelm; August 27th, 2019 at 04:04 AM.
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August 27th, 2019, 06:49 AM   #90
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I spent years on here arguing for Stoner’s quality as a rider in the face of his personality being derided by Rossi fans, they being very much in the majority back in the day on here of course, which seemed to extend to the quality of his riding not being recognised, and consider myself to be in fact practising logical consistency in defending Jorge similarly.

I obviously didn’t express myself sufficiently clearly, but everyone or anyone being a fan of Jorge’s is a different matter which I absolutely don’t require. My issue was with his quality as a rider being as I saw it derided, in what looks very much like the twilight of his career, particularly when injured, which I believe he doesn’t deserve given his achievements and his unrelenting toughness and effort over his career. I think Casey came to admire him despite initially not being a fan for the same reason I did, that he absolutely didn’t quit when defending his title against Casey in 2011, losing the finger or whatever searching for something in practice with which he could beat Casey despite his cause being well nigh hopeless, and as I believe was the case with Stoner was sad he didn’t get to go down fighting in the actual race. He also since Motegi 2010 has not to my knowledge asked for or expected any concessions from anyone, as opposed to one former team-mate, and has been a fair racer imo, in the premier class at least.
Prim may be a fair cop.

As for the rest I perhaps expected better from you as an opponent of the several years of Stoner bashing, justified by the proponents of same on the basis of his “difficult” personality.

I have never kicked any rider when he was down, including Cal Crutchlow of whom I am also a fan, and he is a world super sport champion rather than the winner of 3 premier class and 2 250 gp world titles. I actually fell out with the aforementioned Roger, something i regret because I suspect we would have related well had we met in person, over a point of logic ie that calling Stoner the same as an unknown cart racer in a video who abreacted to being taken out in a cart race was legitimate criticism of Stoner, perhaps akin to likening Jorge to Michael Jackson, and to some extent helped precipitate Jumkie’s departure by deciding his friend JK was for the main part a troll. Jumkie btw was a Dovi fan who hated Jorge personally probably for similar reasons to those which provoked your distaste but didn’t denigrate his actual capability as a rider as far as I can recall.

Last edited by michaelm; August 27th, 2019 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Spelling due to iPhone
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